2013-02-26 GnuCash IRC logs
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07:09:52 <GuybrushThreepwood> Ok so some of the problems I am wondering about: 1. I accept the virtual currency known as bitcoin as payment, and I'm doing some research on how to account for this using gnucash. I see a tutorial at http://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/gnucash.html#4 but this is only for actual currencies. I don't think it will work for customs as I must treat it as a stock?
07:12:49 <GuybrushThreepwood> 2. Bitcoins can be traded at amounts as low as 0.00000001 BTC (Currently, 1 BTC = $30.60807) and so is it possible to store the USD amounts in more than 2 decimal places? It seems to round the values to the nearest 2 cents even when I specify I want more precision than that.
07:13:23 <GuybrushThreepwood> 2 decimal places, not 2 cents
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07:43:36 <Faggiano> hi , is there someone can help me ??
07:44:33 <Faggiano> and speek italian ?
07:57:49 <warlord> GuybrushThreepwood: each real currency has a maximum decimal. In reality you cannot give me $0.00007 in ANY way. That's just not a real amount, so no, Gnucash does not support that.
07:58:34 <warlord> Faggiano: If you need Italian support, the best option would be the gnucash-it mailing list. However I do not know how many people are on that list.
07:59:12 <warlord> Faggiano: if you can translate your question to English we can try here or the gnucash-user mailing list which has lots of pepole.
07:59:16 <warlord> people, even ;)
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08:14:39 <GuybrushThreepwood> would you recommend that i account for fractional amounts by adjusting it later then?
08:14:45 <GuybrushThreepwood> also another example might be:
08:15:54 <GuybrushThreepwood> suppose I buy a lot of 100 trading cards for 50 cents. Each card would have a value of half a cent. I couldn't account for it like this?
08:16:57 <warlord> You could, because gnucash doesnt sore the price, it stores the count and total value.
08:17:20 <warlord> You couldn't sell a single card for 1/2c
08:17:51 <warlord> (doesnt sTore)
08:19:34 <GuybrushThreepwood> So, then supposing that I re-sold 25 trading cards for $5, the cost of those cards I take it would be rounded?
08:20:42 <warlord> The gain split will be rounded..
08:21:15 <warlord> but the irs round to $1 so being off 1c isnt a big deal legally.
08:26:46 <warlord> again, just remmber that the 'price' doesnt matter to gnucash, only the amount (#shares/items) and the total lot value. Gnucash can store 100, 50c. and it can store 25,$5, so you are fine.
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08:32:03 <Faggiano> Hi there all !
08:33:10 <GuybrushThreepwood> regarding the bitcoin issue, now suppose I have several transactions which were all rounded down to the nearest cent (this is an extreme example that won't happen exactly like this but say I receive 100 separate transactions of .001 BTC each (current equivalent of 0.03068684). Should the 6 cents be factored in simply when I re-evaluate the value of my BTC inventory?
08:33:15 <Faggiano> I have this question : i need to import all values for invoices to register from CVS od MySQL, but i need to know how i have to create the output trace for to inport in gnucash
08:33:47 <warlord> GuybrushThreepwood: note that gnucash *can* store .001BTC just fine.. It's only an issue when you translate to USD. So don't do that.
08:34:16 <warlord> So yes, just store your BTC txns in BTC.
08:34:55 <GuybrushThreepwood> Should I create separate income accounts stored in BTC as well, then?
08:34:55 <warlord> The rounding only happens when you exchange. Tell me right now, if the rate is $30.60807, tell me how do I buy exactly 1.00000000 BTC?
08:35:03 <warlord> GuybrushThreepwood: yep
08:35:08 <GuybrushThreepwood> Okay
08:35:11 <GuybrushThreepwood> that makes more sense then
08:36:01 <GuybrushThreepwood> The exchange rates of bitcoins are an average of the amount traded for.. you only buy them in actual dollar amounts
08:36:02 <warlord> Faggiano: I think there might be an invoice importer in 2.4.11, but I dont know how well it works.
08:36:11 <warlord> (alas, I really don't know much about that)
08:37:01 <warlord> GuybrushThreepwood: right, so in reality you're not buying 1BTC for $30.60807, you're paying $30.60 or $30.61
08:38:06 <Faggiano> Yes this is my problem, who i have to contact for to know this and how it works ?
08:38:22 <Faggiano> is there a complete develope manual ?
08:39:10 <warlord> It's all a volunteer effort. The documentation lags. It's possible that UI is in the docs, but I doubt it. In general, and definitely historically, invoices needed to be manually entered.
08:39:21 <warlord> How are you entering your invoice data now?
08:39:26 <warlord> (where is it coming from?)
08:41:00 <Faggiano> my webshop is not ready yet, will be online in few weeks. So i'm looking for a software (free) where i can import automatic the invoices auto-generated from web site. So i can register for fiscal use
08:41:17 <Faggiano> the problem is that i coulb have more than 1700 invoices for day
08:41:26 <Faggiano> i need something automatic
08:43:00 <warlord> Are these true invoices? Or just regular financial transactions?
08:43:42 <warlord> The importer is not automatic; it still requires user input, and it only does one at a time.
08:44:29 <warlord> It sounds like gnucash may not be what you need; you're probably looking for a more Enterprise solution to handle that kind of volume, if you are indeed talking about invoices.
08:44:32 <Faggiano> are true. people byu the service and immediatly receive the invoice by email (or print). In itay you have to register every single invoices, so the problem is to register 1500 or more invoices for day !
08:44:43 <warlord> However if you're just trying to import 1700 txns a day, that's relatively doable.
08:46:04 <Faggiano> i know that user have to enter or "push some buttons" on software, but the problem is to insert every time : customer code, description, prices and more..
08:46:32 <Faggiano> can you councile me some software i can use for automatic enter my values ?
08:47:05 <warlord> Honestly, for that volume, I don't have any recommendations. There was a project a decade ago called GnuE, but I don't know if it ever matured.
08:47:47 <warlord> You can TRY using the bi-import in GnuCash, but I've never used it myself. But it would allow you to import the data you want to import, to some extent.
08:48:36 <GuybrushThreepwood> warlord: So I only need to valuate the bitcoins to USD at the end of a tax period? Because my concern is that I may be purchasing inventory using BTC, selling items using BTC, paying for say, web hosting using BTC, selling items I purchased using BTC for amounts in USD, or vice-versa selling items bought in USD for BTC.
08:49:23 <Faggiano> ok, i will try the "bi-omport" , i check out on documentation ! THANK'S !!! X:D
08:50:12 <warlord> GuybrushThreepwood: you should ask your tax advisor most of those questions, but from gnucash, yes, you would need BTC income and expense accounts. Most likely you'll need to take over another currency, like XXX, because BTC is not an ISO currency and hense isn't supported natively.
08:51:24 <GuybrushThreepwood> XXX currency supports up to 8 decimal places?
08:52:19 <warlord> You can modify it to do so..
08:55:52 <GuybrushThreepwood> I saw some people posting about modifying the source, is it possible to do without?
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09:06:46 <warlord> I'm not sure.. never tried. I *thought* there was a way to do it without modifying the source.
09:25:07 <GuybrushThreepwood> well ty for your help.
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12:27:03 <fell> GuybrushThreepwood: you will run in a bunch of issues. See https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=690479 for details.
12:28:06 <fell> Warlord: FYI https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657402 - Max fraction is too low e.g. for Bitcoin
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12:38:07 <GuybrushThreepwood> fell: I'm considering treating my bitcoin wallet account as USD, and not having a user-defined "Bitcoin" at all. I could simply track the amount of bitcoins within the description
12:38:44 <GuybrushThreepwood> then I could have a separate "Investment gains" or similar acount which would rise/fall when I re-evaluate my account to the current exchange rates
12:39:37 <GuybrushThreepwood> i'm trying to figure out if I do it that way, if it's acceptable to re-evaluate the value of my bitcoins before each transaction, or if I must use FIFO-type method and only re-evaluate at the end of the tax year
12:40:20 <GuybrushThreepwood> since the latter is way tougher to track when using a currency-like asset that's not actually a currency
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12:47:23 <fell> In short http://svn.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-guide/currency_acct1.html#currency_acct_user2 describes 2 approaches and their drawbacks.
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12:48:56 <fell> But the Problem with max fraction will also exist if you use an existing currency
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12:56:20 <warlord> One workaround is to treat the currency as a smaller unit. E.g., instead keeping track of 1BTC, keep track of 1/1000th BTC, a miliBTC, or mBTC. So you record 1.23456789BTC as 1234.56789 mBTC
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13:51:41 <GuybrushThreepwood> is it not possible to move transactions up and down?
13:52:30 <GuybrushThreepwood> like say i had one i wanted put first before the others. is there a way to put it earlier that day?
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14:13:44 <GuybrushThreepwood> ugh. connection
14:14:15 <GuybrushThreepwood> so, yeah, the question i had asked before. is there no way to just move transactions on the same date up and down?
14:31:27 <warlord> GuybrushThreepwood: Enter it first.
14:31:57 <warlord> Or you can use the 'num' column to order them within a day.. Ordering within the register is: Post Date, Num, Enter Date/Time
14:32:16 <GuybrushThreepwood> yeah, i'm using the num column.
14:33:05 <warlord> Note that the num column sorts numerically
14:34:10 <GuybrushThreepwood> it's just time consuming to change all the numbers around rather than a move up/down button (in the case of a forgotten transaction in a list of transactions that i want to appear in the right order)
14:37:15 <GuybrushThreepwood> although, i suppose i can just use decimals..
14:37:45 <warlord> Nope, it's integers only
14:37:51 <warlord> internally it uses atoi()
14:38:04 <GuybrushThreepwood> hm. it seemed to let me
14:38:07 <warlord> (well, maybe strtoul)
14:38:38 <warlord> It's unlikely to order 10.01 and 10.02 correctly, unless they are already in the right order due to the time-of-entry.
14:39:00 <warlord> It begs the question: why are you entering them out of order if you really care about the order.. Or better question: why do you really care about the order in the register?
14:42:30 <GuybrushThreepwood> because, i was notating the bitcoin balance in the description, and storing the USD values of the transaction in the actual account. Then I could do something like, Re-evaluating 0.001398 BTC @ 29.3 USC/BTC at the end of the day and place the difference added (or subtracted) into my other account, Bitcoin Value Gains
14:46:07 <GuybrushThreepwood> right now i'm entering the transactions my wallet currently has (however miniscule) so i can get the hang of how i'm going to record these transactions in the future
14:50:02 <warlord> just add your 'balance' notations at the end of each day -- it's the last transaction you enter, so it will be at the end of the list.
14:51:12 <GuybrushThreepwood> so don't worry about notating the total balance until the end of the day?
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14:53:10 <warlord> Sure.
14:53:23 <warlord> why not?
14:54:16 <warlord> in each txn just notate the BTC for that txn
14:59:57 <GuybrushThreepwood> ok that's a bit easier, then
15:06:27 <warlord> :)
15:06:36 <warlord> Always simplify.. :)
15:18:59 <GuybrushThreepwood> http://i.imgur.com/HhFUSpP.png so, this is how I have it set up. I was reading a tutorial on how to set up foreign currency transactions and basically they said to re-evaluate your account each time you would go to make a transaction or so.. I think the method I'm using would be fine if it was for an actual currency.
15:19:38 <GuybrushThreepwood> I guess I need to find out if I can use it on an asset that's not a currency, but has easily obtainable market values that fluctuate by the hour
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15:23:22 <GuybrushThreepwood> its a bit of a grey area since it's relatively new but eh
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15:44:26 <warlord> Nothing is set in stone.
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21:28:39 <QBchica> hi
21:31:10 <QBchica> i need help with a chart of accounts billing for insurance billing. i would like to invoice the policy total, but i am not sure how to assign an account to the actual policy total.i do not want to report it as income. since it is being funded by a finance co.
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