2014-12-09 GnuCash IRC logs
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12:59:58 <rubdos> Are there any Belgian bookkeepers or Belgians who do their own accounting as sole trader ("eenmanszaak")?
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13:17:59 <warlord> rubdos: you might ask gjanssens what he does
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14:05:19 <CharlesIC> hi
14:05:23 <CharlesIC> can anyone help with online banking?
14:07:23 <Simon> I wish I knew what causes the entire gnucash interface to stop updating properly :| I click a tab and nothing updates until I change to another window and back
14:08:08 <Simon> presumably it's some weird compiz bug but there's no sane way to restart compiz without restarting the entire session
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14:48:31 <CharlesIC> hello
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14:59:24 <warlord> Simon: turn off compiz completely? ;)
14:59:37 <warlord> CharlesIC: Sorry, I dont use online banking. You can try asking tho.
15:03:32 <CharlesIC> http://www.chris-reilly.org/blog/technotes/gnucash-2-4-13-capital-one-directconnect-fix/
15:03:35 <CharlesIC> warlord, i used this link
15:03:39 <CharlesIC> but im still getting the errors at the bottom
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15:05:38 <jralls> CharlesIC: You asked the same question yesterday. Did you try fiddling with the Header Version like I suggested?
15:06:19 <CharlesIC> yes
15:06:41 <jralls> CharlesIC: Note as well that the referenced web page says that that error comes from presenting the wrong credentials. Make sure that yours are correct.
15:07:07 <jralls> Beyond that, your best bet is to ask on the user mailing list.
15:07:24 <jralls> Simon: What OS?
15:07:48 <CharlesIC> 14:07:33 Status for signon request: General error (Code 2000, severity "ERROR")
15:07:48 <CharlesIC> Error other than those specified by the remaining error codes. (Note: Servers should provide a more specific error whenever possible. Error code 2000 should be reserved for cases in which a more specific code is not available.)
15:08:00 <CharlesIC> yeah, i use the same ones to login
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15:12:29 <rubdos> gjanssens, are you here? :)
15:12:29 <rubdos> (thank you, warlord)
15:13:01 <rubdos> (my wireless network card is failing, so if I miss some IRC messages, knock on my head please)
15:13:05 <CharlesIC> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.apps.gnucash.user/53992
15:13:11 <CharlesIC> ok, is there a newer aqconnect library?
15:13:18 <jralls> Then your best bet is to ask on gnucash-user and hope that Emmet Devine, who figured out the problem with Cap One the last time, is still around.
15:14:19 <jralls> Probably. Martin releases frequently. But that's unlikely to be the problem.
15:14:42 <jralls> Or rather, unlikely to be the solution.
15:18:59 <jralls> If you look at Yuri's post at 0627 17 Mar on the thread you just referenced, you'll see that he's talking about mutual fund accounts at Vanguard, not banking at Cap One.
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15:23:58 <warlord> rubdos: he might be sleeping at this hour; you might want to try in the morning.
15:29:11 <rubdos> 'kay, but if it's a real Belgian, his clock indicates half past nine ;) Thank you anyway. I'm studying several courses in accounting atm., so I'd love to speak to someone with some experience in the field.
15:34:43 <warlord> rubdos: just stick around.
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15:39:57 <gjanssens> rubdos, warlord: still awake, but I was to busy to answer...
15:40:17 <rubdos> You see, it's just 21:39 here ;)
15:40:40 <gjanssens> I am sole trader and do my own bookkeeping
15:41:09 <gjanssens> I have an accountant that optimizes the fiscal aspect of my business though
15:41:25 <rubdos> Cool! Exactly whom I had to speak to :)
15:41:36 <rubdos> Then I guess you're using gnucash?
15:41:46 <gjanssens> Yes and no
15:41:54 <rubdos> (and if I'm bothering you, please let me know)
15:41:58 <gjanssens> That is, I track my day to day business activities in gnucash
15:42:27 <gjanssens> But unfortunately it lacks some features for proper vat declarations in Belgium
15:42:59 <gjanssens> So aside from gnucash I'm using openerp (now odoo) for my vat and tax declarations
15:43:37 <rubdos> Cool, that's what I wanted to use too, but after installing it I noticed you had to know a LOT more of bookkeeping to be able to use it
15:43:54 <gjanssens> I would really like to add the missing pieces to gnucash, but there is just too much to do in too little time
15:44:41 <rubdos> Are you doing the double bookkeeping or just "vereenvoudigde boekhouding"? (Excuse me if you're Walloon, but I don't know the French name for it)
15:44:55 <gjanssens> Maybe. I know I had to learn a lot more about accounting for the old proprietary programs I used as well
15:45:06 <gjanssens> You're in luck - I'm Flemish :)
15:45:11 <rubdos> ^^
15:45:20 <gjanssens> I'm doing double bookkeeping
15:45:35 <rubdos> Ok. Because Zenito recommends me to use the simple variant
15:45:57 <gjanssens> I use the business features of gnucash to track my expenses and to invoice my customers
15:45:59 <rubdos> and perhaps, just LibreOffice and gnucash can help me out. Odoo is really to complicated for a technician ;)
15:46:10 <gjanssens> :) sure is
15:47:18 <gjanssens> It took me a while to understand it and it only paid off because I manage 3 businesses in it
15:47:27 <gjanssens> Gnucash is less complicated for sure
15:48:07 <gjanssens> The issue with gnucash and Belgian VAT declarations is that you have to categorize your income and expenses in "btw vakken"
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15:48:23 <gjanssens> GnuCash has no facility for that
15:49:05 <gjanssens> The vat amounts themselves are easy to do by creating the right tax tables
15:49:13 <rubdos> In the coming weeks, I'll have my VAT number too as a "eenmanszaak" and I'd like to do my own bookkeeping. That's why I wanted to visit the channel before attempting things... Would you have any tips or hints perhaps? :)
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15:50:35 <gjanssens> What business are you in starting ?
15:50:51 <gjanssens> I mean what kind of ?
15:50:55 <rubdos> (and still, Broadcom is messing with my wifi connection and Lenovo has a whitelist on their mobo's for wifi-cards... hate it)
15:51:31 <gjanssens> I didn't see you disappear from irc though
15:52:09 <rubdos> IT-things
15:52:23 <rubdos> (just got to the logs, because my network connection is failing.)
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15:52:51 <rubdos> No, I'm not disappearing and now your messages are getting through --'
15:53:34 <gjanssens> IT - that means you'll have to charge 21% vat on your sales invoices
15:53:54 <rubdos> Yes, glad someone confirmed :)
15:53:57 <gjanssens> IT-things as in services or products
15:54:10 <gjanssens> GnuCash doesn't do inventory
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15:54:14 <rubdos> services mostly
15:54:20 <rubdos> I'll use odoo for inventory
15:54:28 <gjanssens> Ok
15:54:29 <rubdos> that's no problem, that part is quite understandable
15:54:36 <gjanssens> Indeed
15:54:37 <rubdos> actually, one of the services IS Odoo :p
15:55:02 <rubdos> + the development of a custom module
15:55:04 <gjanssens> :D
15:55:13 <gjanssens> I didn't read that in your previous comments :)
15:55:37 <rubdos> it'll be mostly open source services... webhosting, webdesign, DNS/mail, odoo, postgresql, ...
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15:55:43 <rubdos> well, there you are :)
15:55:50 <gjanssens> ok
15:56:24 <gjanssens> Just to be sure: what pulls you towards gnucash if you already have odoo ?
15:56:32 <rubdos> Zenito already provided me with a lot of answers, but I can't ask them to do my bookkeeping
15:57:09 <gjanssens> Or do you only use the inventory part of odoo ?
15:57:12 <rubdos> gnucash looks easier. Zenito recommends me to use "vereenvoudigde boekhouding", because "dubbele boekhouding" is to difficult
15:57:26 <gjanssens> I tend to disagree
15:57:27 <rubdos> I WOULD use the odoo bookkeeping
15:57:38 <rubdos> PLEASE disagree, I'd love to use Odoo :$
15:57:53 <rubdos> (but I'm in the wrong channel to repeat that sentence, I think )
15:58:16 <gjanssens> I started to do double bookkeeping because I frequently missed out on payments (both ways)
15:58:49 <gjanssens> By entering all my bills and invoices as well as my payments that problem completely disappeared
15:59:09 <rubdos> You should know I'm an engineering student, so it's my first encounter with numbers...
15:59:36 <gjanssens> Note that "double bookkeeping" is probably a poor translation for non-native Belgian/Dutch speaking people
16:00:03 <gjanssens> Because gnucash enforces what it calls "double-entry bookkeeping", which is not quite the same as we are talking about here
16:01:03 <rubdos> indeed... So I'll say "difficult bookkeeping" instead? ;)
16:02:02 <gjanssens> Heh, I did engineering studies as well some 15 years ago. Part of our curriculum was (business) accounting
16:02:08 <gjanssens> I failed that exam...
16:02:27 <gjanssens> Yet I'm now doing the bookkeeping for 3 companies and rather succesfully
16:02:34 <gjanssens> So there's always hope ;)
16:02:38 <rubdos> lol
16:02:45 <rubdos> glad I'm not the only one :)
16:03:14 <rubdos> We have a course "economie en bedrijfsleven", but it's not about bookkeeping :(
16:04:15 <gjanssens> Anyway, regarding your business I suggest you take a practical point of view
16:04:49 <rubdos> So, Zenito tends to recommend me to use the simplified version, because it's, well, simplified. I tend to use the dubbel boekhouden, because it's in Odoo, and I'd learn a lot.
16:05:30 <gjanssens> Odoo will allow you to do your bookkeeping and fulfill your fiscal obligations
16:05:45 <gjanssens> On the other hand it's much less flexible
16:06:11 <gjanssens> I prefer to be able to correct mistakes until the formal reports are in
16:06:39 <gjanssens> I know some people frown on such practises, I see it as being practical and keeping things simple
16:06:48 <gjanssens> GnuCash gives me this flexibility, odoo much less so
16:07:23 <gjanssens> I personally find payment tracking in odoo a royal pain compared to gnucash
16:07:36 <rubdos> Ok. I have a course in bookkeeping from I friend of mine. She wants to help me with it if I'm stuck, so I'll get through it asap. That way I'll be able to use Odoo.
16:07:38 <gjanssens> So I do it in gnucash and only summarize it in odoo
16:08:00 <rubdos> as of now, I only have one customer, so payment tracking won't be a real PITA ;)
16:08:26 <gjanssens> There are also your expenses to pay, which also falls under payment tracking for me
16:08:54 <gjanssens> As a service provider there aren't that many probably either
16:09:16 <rubdos> Yes, that's true... But in the beginning, that's mostly just the collocation company.
16:09:30 <gjanssens> Oh and I also know small businesses that delegate all of their accounting to an accountant
16:09:41 <gjanssens> The only manage their payments
16:09:44 <rubdos> I'm too small to take an accountant :/
16:09:51 <gjanssens> Heh, ok
16:10:46 <rubdos> I'd lose all my profit... My mother has an accountant and I've seen the bills
16:11:19 <gjanssens> I disagree - a good accountant pays back his bills in fiscal optimization
16:11:30 <gjanssens> But that may not be the case for a small startup yet
16:11:55 <rubdos> I'll make sure to have an accountant when I'm not a startup anymore :)
16:12:02 <gjanssens> :)
16:12:25 <gjanssens> Make sure it's a good one ;)
16:12:33 <rubdos> For now it's just so I'm able to sell things I'm good at and pay back the bills at the restaurants with my girlfriend ;)
16:12:43 <rubdos> I will!
16:12:58 <gjanssens> Are you using the odoo online offer?
16:13:13 <rubdos> No, own install.
16:13:25 <gjanssens> Nice. Same here.
16:13:48 <gjanssens> With support contract or just the open source edition ?
16:13:49 <rubdos> You have to use git pull every hour, but it's nice indeed :)
16:14:02 <rubdos> Just the github version, no support contract (yet)
16:15:06 <rubdos> I should be able to manage most of the technical bugs myself if I encounter one. I'll see if I ever want a support contract. I probably will.
16:15:24 <gjanssens> Ok. I suppose you started with version 8
16:15:57 <gjanssens> I'm still on version 7
16:16:29 <gjanssens> And the only reason I have a support contract is because odoo (the company) keeps major upgrades as a trade secret
16:17:16 <gjanssens> I don't have time to dig through the code history to figure out which database changes are required during a upgrade
16:17:51 <gjanssens> Their functional support has been a major disappointment so far.
16:17:55 <gjanssens> Way overpriced.
16:18:20 <rubdos> Well, perhaps you should get a support contract from me, I'll dig in the code for you ;)
16:18:31 <gjanssens> (They call it business pack these days)
16:19:18 <rubdos> And indeed, I installed 8
16:19:34 <gjanssens> I had functional support on the accounting module for one year, but it turned out I knew more about it than the functional consultant they offered me.
16:19:48 <gjanssens> Not impressive ...
16:19:55 <rubdos> lol
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16:20:23 <rubdos> Well, you probably know more about it than I do for now :)
16:20:38 <gjanssens> Possibly :)
16:20:51 <gjanssens> The difference is you will make it your business, for me it remains a tool
16:21:38 <rubdos> I'll try to make it my business. Just have to learn accounting first...
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16:22:14 <gjanssens> True... and GnuCash is a great learning tool for that :)
16:22:37 <gjanssens> Great community (equals good functional support at an unbeatable price)
16:22:49 <gjanssens> And the application is forgiving, you can correct your mistakes
16:23:34 <gjanssens> It can't do your complete bookkeeping though and it's missing some layers typically found in bigger accounting packages
16:24:08 <gjanssens> like multiple journals (sales, purchase,...) or true accounting periods
16:24:23 <rubdos> So, you recommend me to use both, and that way, learn about each of them?
16:25:29 <gjanssens> Using several accounting packages has helped me a lot to separate real accounting stuff from programmer's decisions
16:25:52 <gjanssens> Each program has it's own way to apply general accounting principles
16:26:37 <kimmo2> indeed
16:26:55 <kimmo2> so how will the next release of gnucash tackle cost centers or dimensions or whatnots? ;)
16:27:10 <gjanssens> If you only see one program, you will only learn one way to see accounting which will limit you
16:27:20 <gjanssens> just like knowing only one programming language would
16:27:41 <gjanssens> kimmo2: do you have the patches ready ? ;)
16:27:52 <kimmo2> heeell noo :)
16:28:03 <gjanssens> then probably not :(
16:28:26 <gjanssens> ;)
16:29:04 <rubdos> Probably just like having used both Linux and Windows, or Calc and Excel? :)
16:29:08 <gjanssens> that's stretching my accounting knowledge by the way: aren't those terms from analytical accounting ?
16:29:22 <gjanssens> rubdos: yes
16:30:03 <gjanssens> kimmo2: that analytical accounting question was based on you mentioning cost centers and dimensions
16:30:18 <gjanssens> not on Calc vs Excel
16:30:32 <kimmo2> gjanssens, I just wish I could tag either individual splits or entire transactions to a specific business area, since I'm taxed separately for my separate businesses even though I just have one set of books
16:31:06 <gjanssens> kimmo2: tagging would indeed open up many opportunities
16:31:16 <kimmo2> so I'd like to have a income statement for only the transactions tagged with "Rental apartments"
16:32:03 <gjanssens> I have it on my list to investigate because I think it would also be a prerequisite to implement decent vat declaration support for Belgium
16:32:15 <gjanssens> But so far - no time :(
16:32:22 <kimmo2> ideally there'd be dimensions, so that I could use a slider to allocate 20% of a cost to rental apartment A, 20% to rental apartment B, and rest not for rentals at all
16:32:57 <gjanssens> I barely manage to keep track of what happens in gnucash and apply some patches posted in our bug tracker
16:33:23 <kimmo2> hmm, I don't really see how dimensions or tagging would be a prerequisite for vat declaration... I've been declaring my vat with gnucash for like 12 years noww with no trouble
16:33:59 <gjanssens> kimmo2: dimensions look like more advanced stuff. I never used such technique before myself
16:34:15 <kimmo2> not too many microbusinesses need them
16:35:04 <kimmo2> but I have IT consulting, management consulting, and rental apartments all in one company, and I'd like to be able to get p&l statements for the individual business areas, as well as individual rental apartments
16:35:22 <kimmo2> without having to alter the account tree too much
16:35:55 <gjanssens> as for the vat declarations: in Belgium the base amounts must be grouped into different categories which don't map directory to accounts
16:36:21 <gjanssens> So I was thinking of using tags to set up these categories
16:36:48 <gjanssens> And the generate a report based on these tags
16:37:06 <gjanssens> Prerequisite is a bit extreme. It's one way of tackling it
16:37:40 <rubdos> (I have another question regarding Odoo, should I use the IRC query feature for that?)
16:37:46 <gjanssens> The current tax reports only work for US of Germany and are in fact als a form of tagging
16:38:15 <gjanssens> (oh maybe not even vat related)
16:38:25 <kimmo2> I just have Income.Sales.Sales_24 for vat 24% sales
16:38:59 <gjanssens> Right, the sales part is easy
16:39:07 <gjanssens> The expenses part is more difficult
16:39:33 <gjanssens> I have different vendors that provide for example office supplies
16:39:47 <gjanssens> One is a national vendor, the other is an international one
16:40:08 <kimmo2> I have assets.current.tax_credit.vat_24, ...vat_12 and so on.. but then again I only have to report the amount of tax per vat group for sales, and total amount of tax credit for purchases
16:40:23 <kimmo2> I don't do international business, too much hassle ;)
16:40:36 <gjanssens> :)
16:41:06 <gjanssens> If I'm correct you're referring to the vat to recover in these accounts
16:41:24 <gjanssens> But I also have to report the base amounts for these in different categories
16:41:37 <gjanssens> So that would make a very elaborate account tree
16:41:47 <gjanssens> Which I prefer to avoid
16:42:15 <gjanssens> It gets worse with the EU's interstate special rules
16:43:00 <gjanssens> Anyway, using tags looks like a more flexible and clean approach
16:43:09 <gjanssens> Except tags are not implements :(
16:43:28 <gjanssens> kimmo2: out of curiosity - which country are you in ?
16:44:56 <kimmo2> finland
16:48:02 <gjanssens> Nice
16:48:21 * gjanssens didn't know a country with 24% vat
16:48:23 <gjanssens> Now I do :)
16:53:29 <kimmo2> I don't mind, I get most of it back ;)
16:55:00 <gjanssens> Cool I wish I could say that as well of my 21%...
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16:57:37 <kimmo2> well why don't you get it back?
17:02:38 <gjanssens> I'm not making enough expenses as I'm mostly doing services
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17:03:38 <kimmo2> yeah, but you can still go to the computer store and subtract the vat to get the actual prices...
17:08:35 <gjanssens> Absolutely
17:09:40 <gjanssens> I save 1/5 on my computer infrastructure and it's tax deductible as well
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17:40:31 <kimmo2> I've so far convinced 5 colleagues to quit their jobs and start their one man businesses
17:41:18 <kimmo2> everyone's been amazed how their income more than doubled, and they can pretty much deduct ̃40% (vat + corporate tax) on anything except for food and clothing...
17:42:22 <rubdos> Cool, looking forward to it :)
17:43:04 <rubdos> I'm calling it a night. Thank you, gjanssens, for this helpful explanation! Good night and slaapwel!
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20:45:18 <trewq_> Has anyone had any luck in using OFXDirectConnect to download transcations from fidelity.com? It seems quicken can do this: https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/faqs-exporting-account-information
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20:46:21 <trewq_> I tried adding my fidelity account through OFXDirectConnect, but I get a invalid password error. the strange thing is that I do not get asked for a password.
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