2020-12-08 GnuCash IRC logs

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04:00:22 <giuseppef_> Hello, I'm refining the chart of accounts I told you about a few days ago. I have a doubt about how to manage accounts dedicated to accumulated depreciation. For Italian accounting rules, fixed assets must be stated in the financial statements net of the amortized cost. Accounts are usually used for accumulated depreciation which is then indicated in the balance sheet as an adjustment to the value of fixed assets in the
04:00:22 <giuseppef_> assets section (and not in the liabilities section). For this reason, I intend to create accounts dedicated to accumulated depreciation, classified as assets on which the depreciation quotas will be recorded. The question is whether to create these accounts as sub-accounts of the activity accounts (and therefore at a lower level) or whether to create these accounts at the same level as the activities and mark them as
04:00:23 <giuseppef_> "hidden accounts" to avoid them to be separately shown in the balance sheet reports.
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09:57:32 <chris> jralls I have (pending) some cleanups for maint - move function from options.scm to business-options.scm, and merge #833 - it means modularisation is much cleaner. agree?
10:06:35 <chris> jralls: (not crucial) github actions don't always upload test log into artifacts.
10:08:58 <chris> I've left #831 untouched for now
10:15:01 <warlord> jralls, FYI, I got the commands to get a proper SubjectAltName into the certs, so I put that in and put them in place. However, I do not feel the need to restart now; I'll wait until the next natural reboot.
10:21:26 <chris> jralls: I've just seen in github actions that guile-2.2 does fail on test-report-utilities. odd indeed.
10:25:36 <chris> (I'm working on maint-modularisation-redux)
10:39:38 <giuseppef_> hi, who is working on /gnucash/report/reports/standard/balsheet-pnl.scm ?
10:40:05 <chris> o/
10:40:37 <chris> what's the issue with iy
10:41:17 <giuseppef_> no issu, just a feature request. I'm looking at the code and I think it should be easy to introduce (easy for you, not for me):
10:42:18 <giuseppef_> when showing multiperiod column, I think it's expected to have first column as the most recent period and secondo column as the previous and so on
10:42:44 <giuseppef_> Maybe it could be added an option to chose ordering period (acsending or descending)
10:42:49 <chris> "expected" is subjective
10:42:57 <giuseppef_> sure
10:42:57 <chris> to me it's backwards
10:43:33 <chris> maybe we can ask CDB-Man and jralls
10:43:43 <chris> they're the authority on formal expectations
10:44:23 <CDB-PHONE> most corporate financial statements have most recent on the left
10:44:27 <warlord> Maybe ask on -user list. There are CPAs there that could chime in. I can see both ways (with 2 columns).
10:44:31 <giuseppef_> I said expected because in Italy we use to make annual reports using for the first column the current year and on the second column the previous period (so t is first column and t-1 is previous period)
10:44:56 <CDB-PHONE> USA SEC and IFRS all have recent on left
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10:45:13 <CDB-PHONE> this is pretty standard
10:45:56 <chris> Ok sounds like a new option is warranted; should it be default then?
10:46:27 <CDB-PHONE> it should be default, it's literally in the standard
10:46:36 <CDB-PHONE> reversing it would be non standard
10:46:37 <giuseppef_> if the report is intended for years reporting, I think so
10:47:23 <chris> the intention was to show multiple-date balance-sheets, thereby showing a (hopefully) rising trend
10:47:36 <chris> but standards are good
10:47:54 <chris> what's the proper name for the option then?
10:48:55 <giuseppef_> multicol-report-periods-order ?
10:49:29 <CDB-PHONE> "comparison period display order"
10:49:53 <CDB-PHONE> with options "most recent on left" & "most recent on right"
10:52:19 <chris> We'd want boolean: "Period order is most recent first" true/false
10:53:14 <warlord> with a default to true? ;)
10:53:35 <chris> if we agree, yes
10:53:55 <giuseppef_> I don't think any other fancy order could be usefull (not figuring any scenario where one would need t t-2 t-1 or similar)
10:54:43 <CDB-PHONE> the default should be recent on left, yes. I've yet to see any publicly issued statements anywhere that's reversed
10:55:03 <CDB-PHONE> the only place I can think of where it might be reversed is on Arabic and other right to left writing countries
10:55:12 <CDB-PHONE> I don't know if that's actually the case
10:55:20 <warlord> but in those areas, Left and Right are reversed globally, no?
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10:58:14 <chris> my use case was to show monthly inc/exp and I do expect right=recent
10:58:59 <chris> it's easily changed nonetheless
10:59:54 <CDB-PHONE> warlord: not sure, hence my uncertainty. I certainly don't have the ability to do first hand research in Arabic
11:00:30 <warlord> me either.
11:02:43 <chris> should be doable for next few days, in time for 4.3
11:05:11 <giuseppef_> It seems arabian as the first column (on the right) to most recent period, reverting all tables but using the same logic used in IFRS:
11:05:14 <giuseppef_> https://www.sabic.com/assets/ar/Images/SABIC-Annual-Report-2019-ARA_tcm12-22074.pdf
11:05:28 <giuseppef_> pag. 18 of the pdf
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11:06:09 <giuseppef_> Not sure for me, but the bold column should be 2019 as in table in page 18 of https://www.sabic.com/assets/en/Images/SABIC-Annual-Report-2019-english_tcm1010-22074.pdf
11:09:13 <chris> jralls: by removing guile-3.0-dev and add guile-2.2-dev I can now reproduce the issue. It may come from (ice-9 match) - had some bug fixes between guile-2.2 and guile-3.0
11:13:46 <CDB-PHONE> I don't actually see any financial statements in those reports...
11:15:33 <giuseppef_> I think it is the "arabic way". The only data are in the tables
11:16:14 <chris> jralls: found it- it's a match bug. I'll fix on maint.
11:17:01 <giuseppef_> CDB-PHONE: look here: http://www.arabiancement.com//images/downloads/statements/2020/3Q2020_Standalaone_Financials-Arabic.pdf
11:17:14 <giuseppef_> and here: http://www.arabiancement.com//images/downloads/statements/2020/3Q2020_Standalone_Financials-English.pdf
11:18:19 <CDB-PHONE> looks like I was right, they have recent on right side
11:18:55 <giuseppef_> yes but right is "first" for them
11:20:16 <giuseppef_> (in the arabic one the only signs I understand are 2020 and 2019, so don't trust me for all the rest)
11:20:42 <chris> jralls: not on maint yet - pushed to maint-modularisation
11:22:48 <giuseppef_> I would like to push new italian translation on 4.3 (new strings and fixed ones). Will I have some days to do it before release?
11:26:41 <chris> jralls: I'll rebase maint-modularisation onto current maint.
11:28:11 <chris> gtg
11:48:23 <giuseppef_> this morning (here) I asked a question; I am reposting in case none of you read it:
11:48:25 <giuseppef_> I'm refining the chart of accounts I told you about a few days ago. I have a doubt about how to manage accounts dedicated to accumulated depreciation. For Italian accounting rules, fixed assets must be stated in the financial statements net of the amortized cost. Accounts are usually used for accumulated depreciation which is then indicated in the balance sheet as an adjustment to the value of fixed assets in the assets
11:48:25 <giuseppef_> section (and not in the liabilities section). For this reason, I intend to create accounts dedicated to accumulated depreciation, classified as assets on which the depreciation quotas will be recorded. The question is whether to create these accounts as sub-accounts of the activity accounts (and therefore at a lower level) or whether to create these accounts at the same level as the activities and mark them as "hidden
11:48:26 <giuseppef_> accounts" to avoid them to be separately shown in the balance sheet reports.
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12:09:42 <jralls> chris: re gtk.html Is *what* potentially a requirement?
12:09:57 <fell> Oh, we are joint again after 18h net split.
12:12:00 <jralls> chris: gnc_dmy2time64 creates a time64 for midnight *local time* on the dmy so it's TZ-sensitive. If you want a TZ-insensitive time64 use gnc_dmy2time64_neutral.
12:18:46 <jralls> warlord, I don't recall anyone on gnucash-user confessing to be a licensed accountant, though several have finance IT experience and Cousens has a degree in it. CDB-* has said he is one.
12:20:21 <CDB-PHONE> giuseppef_ I would create them as asset accounts and sub account under the asset you are trying to depreciate
12:22:18 <CDB-PHONE> you can adjust their visibility view ch
12:22:30 <CDB-PHONE> via controlling how many levels are displayed in the report
12:24:39 <CDB-PHONE> I would also set the balance sheet to report account value of all parent accounts rather than the subtotal. then enable the show separate subtotal setting
12:25:05 <CDB-PHONE> this way the account shows the asset value, and the below subtotal shows the net value
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13:16:35 <fell> giuseppef: https://code.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-guide/dep_accounts1.html and https://code.gnucash.org/docs/it/gnucash-guide/dep_accounts1.html
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13:27:06 <fell> chris, we have 2 different use cases: 1. official annual statements containig comparision with the previous year (current first) and 2. (internal) timelines in chronological order.
13:28:05 <fell> giuseppef_ ^
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13:53:14 <giuseppef_> sorry I was disconnected for a while
14:03:44 <giuseppef_> ok CDB, I will set them as asset subaccounts. About the balance sheet setting, I need the account of the asset category to show directly the net value in report.
14:04:26 <CDB-PHONE> the subtotal for fixed assets should be correct
14:05:13 <giuseppef_> So, I could use the option "Parent account amounts include children". In this way the asset account records non depreciated value, the subaccount has the depreciation, and the value shown would be the net one
14:05:38 <CDB-PHONE> that also works
14:08:14 <giuseppef_> one more question about translation: the report called "Balance Sheet (eguile)" is both for "Profit And Loss" and for "Assets and liabilities"?
14:40:22 <CDB-PHONE> I believe the eguile stuff is deprecated
15:08:29 <giuseppef_> I was asking just to refine translation.
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15:26:49 <warlord> CDB-PHONE, deprecated how?
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15:35:53 <giuseppef__> Another question: is it normal in Germany or in USA to have equity after liabilities in balance sheet reports?
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15:55:50 <CDB-PHONE> warlord, I thought jralls mentioned something about it not being updated or maintained by anyone anymore, so there's no guarantee on accuracy. could also be me mixing things up
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15:56:26 <CDB-PHONE> giuseppef__ yes in USA and IFRS, equities after liabilities
15:56:31 <warlord> The reports still work.
15:56:44 <warlord> AFAIK there isn't much to maintain.
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15:58:26 <jralls> CDB-PHONE if that's about the eguile reports you're mixing things up: It's eguile itself that isn't maintained anymore. It still mostly works but at some point the guile folks will do something that kills it.
16:11:19 <fell> GuiseppeF, it depends on the default sort, order long or short term first, which is country specific.
16:12:14 <fell> E.g. de_DE: Equity, liability, but de_CH: liability, equity..
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16:18:58 <fell> Warlord, we have not seen the eguile maintainer since years, but if you volunteer …
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17:00:03 <warlord> fell, has there been a need? Has it broken?
17:00:36 <fell> Just in case it will.
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17:28:06 <giuseppef_> warlord: I asked about that report because it is denominated "Balance Sheet" and it has bot economic (Sales and Expenditure) and patrimonial (Asset and Liabilities) reports "sections". I thought balance sheet was used only for "Asset and liabilities" report
17:32:43 <warlord> I've never actually looked at the BS EGuile Report.
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17:34:04 <chris> giuseppef_ other ppl have complained about eguile reports being a complex mashup as well
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17:35:30 <chris> jralls: I heard on #guile gtk4 is launching in <2wks
17:35:59 <chris> jralls: gnc_dmy2time64 - hmm I'll need to modify some tests then to make them less TZ sensitive
17:44:53 <fell> chris, "ppl"?
17:45:49 <CDB-PHONE> "people"
17:45:54 <CDB-PHONE> abbreviation
17:47:16 <fell> giuseppef_, I think you found a bug, but chris might declare it a feature. I can not remember to have income accounts seen there before.
17:47:38 * chris don't care for eguile reports
17:48:13 * CDB-PHONE also doesn't care for them
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17:50:40 <fell> I do use it rarely. ISTR eguile was introduced after people complained, the standard reports are so hard to adjust.
17:51:15 <fell> … long before chris started the cleanup.
17:52:22 <CDB-PHONE> what exactly is "eguile" anyways?
17:53:36 <chris> CDB: similar to php. <html><body><ol><$ for i in accounts $><li><$ i></li><$ endfor></body></html>
17:53:59 <chris> instead of regular guile: (for-each add-li accounts)
17:55:40 <CDB-PHONE> are both things an interface that's custom built for Gnucash?
17:58:41 <chris> eguile was published 11yrs ago and someone ported for gnucash; guile is an actively-maintained lisp compiler
17:59:08 <CDB-PHONE> ah, that makes more sense
17:59:25 <CDB-PHONE> all Google results seems only to point to Gnucash
18:00:06 <chris> lol
18:00:49 <fell> The main issue of the lisp family. they did not early rename CAR/CDR to head/tail. That makes it geeky.
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18:35:05 <jralls> chris, dunno about 2 weeks but they are getting close. We will at some point need to migrate off of Gtk3, but we've probably got at least 5 years unless webkit forces us again.
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18:54:14 <jralls> chris, The Gtk folks are only in the last month saying that they're coming up on the last Gtk2 release and at least 2 of their flagship apps (GIMP and Inkscape) still haven't moved to Gtk3.
18:59:27 <chris> O_o
18:59:44 <jralls> Ack-thpppft?
19:00:09 <chris> shocking
19:01:10 <chris> re: match.scm I'd split the commit to have the match-removal separate from modularisation; when guile-3.0 is minimum I'd put it back.
19:01:36 <jralls> OK.
19:05:50 <chris> So: #831 is now fixed up nicely. It doesn't seem to trigger github actions. If you're happy with it (and can trigger actions) feel free to merge in. gtg soon.
19:06:10 <jralls> It would have been good to have squashed d8f3107ed (put back 4th txn) into 48d24add before pushing to maint. Too late now.
19:07:20 <jralls> I don't know why PRs don't run the github actions, but they do on your repo so I've been checking there. You need to take the PR out of draft status.
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20:31:22 <warlord> jralls, maybe we need to set something properly to run github actions?
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