2020-12-14 GnuCash IRC logs
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02:31:52 <giuseppef_> fell: I will use "ripiegare" (the term occurs just in that string in gnucash)
02:33:38 <giuseppef_> sk: use the same account. Choose a type (liability or asset), and use it in both ways.
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05:46:48 <chris> jralls: if you have a spare 52mins this is a good overview of guix by civodul who wrote #836 in guix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnU8SYakZQQ
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11:39:47 <jralls> chris, I'm not at all interested in guix.
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12:50:33 <fell> warlord, wiki seems frozen.
12:51:21 <fell> Only a few minutes.
12:52:43 <warlord> fell, define frozen?
12:53:23 <fell> I had to wait a few minutes until a page was loded.
12:54:06 <fell> In between I pinged code, which was OK.
12:54:22 <fell> loaded
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12:59:23 <warlord> Could've been a database pause..
13:00:39 <fell> Can we get the delay below a minute?
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13:10:57 <warlord> well, if it was a one-time thing, I couldn't tell you what it is. However it could also have been, e.g., the backup system flushing disks and taking a snapshot to start a backup.
13:11:12 <warlord> Right now code has 0 load
13:12:05 <warlord> although code starts that at 1am, so that's unlikely the slowdown you saw.
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13:12:41 <warlord> If ping worked but wiki didn't -- I'm not sure what it could be. The database is local.
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13:18:26 <fell> warlord the local process priority between apache and the DB maintenance process?
13:18:52 <warlord> Possible, but unlikely.. Unless this happened 12 hours ago?
13:19:26 <fell> No, it was when I wrote.
13:20:42 <fell> some other background process on the machine?
13:22:18 <warlord> Unlikely.
13:22:24 <warlord> Nothing in the logs.
13:23:17 <fell> Other VMs stealing resources?
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13:39:53 <warlord> Possible, but also unlikely.. The host is not really over-subscribed. So while that is possibly an issue, I also find it unlikely.
13:40:08 <warlord> Load on the VM Host is only 2.5 right now.
13:40:59 <warlord> Plenty of free RAM
13:41:18 <warlord> # free
13:41:18 <warlord> total used free shared buff/cache available
13:41:18 <warlord> Mem: 263847120 89382136 25929868 20972 148535116 173551020
13:41:18 <warlord> Swap: 8388604 520 8388084
13:41:50 <finster> well, that would say nothing about like possible i/o spikes, like fell probably observed
13:42:10 <warlord> Indeed.. But the underlying storage is all SSD..
13:42:42 <warlord> I think it would be... challenging... to spike I/O so high that it would affect code/wiki in that way.
13:43:31 <finster> well, no one can tell until it's measured ;)
13:43:44 <finster> i'm playing devil's advocate. no offense meant
13:47:11 <warlord> none taken.
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13:49:18 <fell> I watched similar a "blocking me while editing" month before on a regular base, usually at the same time of day. But IIRC that was more around 00:00 UTC.
13:49:37 <warlord> Right now iostat is showing a max of 232tps per disk.. with a max of 6MB/s read and 1MB/s write. Pretty low, I think.
13:50:03 <warlord> That's during code's backup window.
13:51:42 <warlord> (0h00UTC)
13:52:01 <fell> At which time is google's visite?
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13:53:26 <warlord> hard to say. It does not look conistent, grepping for 'google' in the http logs
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14:04:58 <jralls> fell, warlord, gjanssens I turned off travis this morning and removed its files from the repo.
14:05:19 <warlord> I saw the commit message.
14:05:31 <fell> Already seen
14:06:31 <fell> jralls, I just saw nno win build
14:07:59 <jralls> I'm working on that now on the build VM. Very odd: It works if I jhbuild buildone gnucash-git, fails from the powershell script.
14:11:13 <fell> BTW, we got already 2 TP pos. And Yuri sent me a fix after 5 min.
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14:11:22 <jralls> Looks like it's going to finish this time. I deleted the build directory completely before starting.
14:12:12 <jralls> I'm going to guess that the TPs are uk and hr...
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14:12:58 <fell> uk, pt
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14:17:36 <giuseppef_> good evening, I'm trying to understand Transfer account dialog box. For what I understand the account on the left is written in Debit (Dare) and the account on the Right is written in Credit (Avere).
14:18:13 <jralls> Right, hr is milotype, not TP. ro is the other TP one that's been keeping up well. Fell, I noticed the UK flag in your commit message. That would be for en_GB. ;-)
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14:19:02 <giuseppef_> So if I want ro record a bank withdrawal, I should mark the cash account on the right and the bank account on the left.
14:19:26 <giuseppef_> The problem is just how this is explained here: https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v4/C/gnucash-help/trans-win-enter.html
14:20:03 <jralls> giuseppef_ Other way around. Assets increase with debits (the left hand column).
14:20:05 <fell> That is a mistake by github the messed up language and coutry codes
14:20:30 <giuseppef_> There is written to choose on the left the "Transfer from" account and on the right the "Transfer to"
14:25:20 <jralls> Interesting. Looks like the Transfer Dialog is messed up. With Preferences>Accounts>Use Formal Accounting Labels off, Transfer From is on the left and Transfer To is on the right. With the formal labels pref on Debit Account is correctly on the left and Credit Account on the right..
14:26:29 <giuseppef_> jralls, for me it is clear what happens, I am just looking for a way to translate. Using Formal Label it's easy (I tryied different solutions, but I think just "Dare" e "Avere" makes sense)
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14:27:19 <field^Zzz4> jralls: I was about to play around with these settings to verify my understanding of the matter. Now I'm happy I didn't check it out until now
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14:28:06 <giuseppef_> jralls: Is it clear for you what I mean for "Dare" and "Avere" or do you want me to explain better?
14:29:20 <field^Zzz4> jralls:I'm yet in a phase of lesser confusion. that'd 've changed immediately to the worse..
14:32:14 <jralls> giuseppef_, As long as those are the terms that Italian accountants use it's fine. For not-formal the current translation has Trasferisci da and a, which also makes sense.
14:34:23 <fell> giuseppef_, I thought continental got "Debit" and "Credit" from mediaval Italy.
14:34:40 <fell> continental languages
14:34:56 <jralls> This is interesting: The Transfer Dialog switches the meaning of the columns according to the labels, so if you have formal labels on the left one is debit and if off the left one is from.
14:35:49 <jralls> So the behavior is correct regardless but the placement is a bit disconcerting with informal labels.
14:36:04 <fell> jralls, and if you startfom passive?
14:38:37 <giuseppef_> Now I get it. When using informal label to make it "intuitive" (from and to), the account on the left is written on the right side
14:38:59 <jralls> giuseppef_ Right.
14:39:46 <jralls> fell, Hmm, transferring *from* a liability account *increases* the liability so it still belongs on the right.
14:40:06 <giuseppef_> When using formal label on the left you have the account written on the left (credited)
14:40:31 <jralls> No, credit *always* goes on the right.
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14:43:45 <giuseppef_> using formal, the Asset account on the left side of the dialog is increased
14:44:30 <field^Zzz4> mmmh
14:44:57 <jralls> So IMO it was at best unnecessary to code the Transfer Dialog to swap the columns when formal is turned off. Why would anyone new to a new program care if the order is from to or to from?
14:45:21 <field^Zzz4> argl
14:45:22 <jralls> But if we change it after 20 years there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
14:45:29 <field^Zzz4> from to or to from
14:45:32 <field^Zzz4> oh my
14:48:28 <giuseppef_> I think that this "feature" (swapping) should be described in the documentation (it is 3 days I'm trying to understand this for translation and I didn't suppose in any way the dialog could switch columns; my fault)
14:50:54 <jralls> Well, the English version doesn't say anything about left and right or debit and credit.
14:52:06 <jralls> giuseppef_ are you working on the manual or GnuCash?
14:52:22 <giuseppef_> jralls, it is true. In the doc page is described just "unformal". So to understand how to translate formal, I was looking at column position ... my fault
14:52:34 <giuseppef_> no jralls, not working on manual
14:53:17 <giuseppef_> Maybe when program translation will be completely stable (in Italian), I could think about it
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14:56:05 <jralls> You're only 34 strings away: msgfmt --statistics po/it.po == 5511 translated messages, 18 fuzzy translations, 16 untranslated messages.
15:00:29 <giuseppef_> fell, when double-entry bookkeeping was invented, on the pages of the ledger accounts the name of the counterparty (debtor or creditor) was in the header; then under the vertical line, in the left column was written "debet dare" (he must give) and in the right column "debet abhere" (he must have). So the debtors (my assets) are on the left and my creditors (my liabilities) are on the right. From those "debet dare" and
15:00:29 <giuseppef_> "debet abhere", derives the use of Dare and Avere, respectively for credits and debts
15:00:47 <jralls> field^Zzz4, you said yesterday that you're fluent in French. That translation could use some attention! ;-)
15:01:48 <jralls> giuseppef_ it.po has Debit->Dare and Credit->Avere.
15:02:11 <giuseppef_> jralls, I have completed the translation for 4.3 before string freeze. I am working on fixing previous translations. The problem are not the new 34 strings...
15:02:22 <jralls> OK.
15:05:04 <giuseppef_> jralls can you give me an example where those translated strings are used?
15:05:22 <giuseppef_> I have fuzzied them in my working file
15:06:39 <jralls> At the tops of the columns in the register.
15:06:52 <jralls> But only when formal labels are turned on.
15:07:51 <giuseppef_> Now turnet on. I see on the left "Dare", and on the right "Avere"
15:09:41 <jralls> That's what you should see.
15:10:28 <giuseppef_> so why do you think it is wrong in it.po?
15:13:13 <jralls> I don't. I think you were mistaken when you said '"debet abhere", derives the use of Dare and Avere, respectively for credits and debts', you wanted 'respectively for debits and credits'.
15:19:43 <giuseppef_> oh, ok .. "My credits" are assets, and the guys who should give me the money recorded in those accounts are debtors to me (to avoid this mess we prefer to use "Dare" on the left and "Avere" on the right)
15:21:52 <jralls> Right. "Credit" can be confusing because it's used a bunch of different ways.
15:27:38 <field^Zzz4> jralls:sure enough. two issues here: financial terms aaaaand .. time..
15:28:33 <field^Zzz4> jralls:I'm only very slowly coming to terms with this stuff. not even touched those SKR0? sets.
15:28:41 <jralls> Financial terms is easy, just read a basic accounting book in French. Having enough time is always harder.
15:29:06 <jralls> The nice thing about translating is that you can do a little bit at a time.
15:29:35 <field^Zzz4> jralls:true. third issue: cannot fork the repo, disk full. :/
15:30:11 <field^Zzz4> jralls:sometimes there are to many boulders in the way one'd like to go
15:30:34 <jralls> That's even easier, you can just download the po from Github, we'll take updated ones sent to the mailing list.
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15:31:26 <giuseppef_> about translating the Transfer Dialog for formal labels I will translate "Credit Account" as "Conto mov. in Avere" means "Conto movimentato in Avere", like "Account written on credit"
15:32:06 <jralls> And on the subject of easier, fell, warlord we should do something with weblate even if it's just set up an instance on weblate.org.
15:32:54 <jralls> giuseppef_, seems reasonable, but keep in mind that my Italian vocab is about 20 words total.
15:33:16 <giuseppef_> ok jralls, I think it is ok
15:34:08 <warlord> what would the CI look like for weblate.org?
15:34:57 <giuseppef_> Before pushing new it.po I will wait some more days. Today I wrote on gnucash-it asking people to tell me about little understandable strings in the context. I didn't receive any advice until now
15:35:37 <jralls> warlord CI? Do you mean how would weblate.org integrate? I think they have a PR option.
15:37:06 <warlord> Yes, that's what I mean. How would git changes get pushed to weblate, and how would weblate changes come back into git.
15:38:54 <giuseppef_> https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/api.html
15:39:08 <field^Zzz4> jralls:ok, will look into it.
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15:40:50 <giuseppef_> CI and curl ?
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15:41:34 <jralls> And more particularly https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/admin/continuous.html#push-changes and https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/vcs.html#vcs-github. Weblate will clone our repo and pull changes and I guess make a new gnucash.pot and mssgmerge it. When translators commit updates it creates a PR on Github.
15:43:55 <jralls> I think we'd want to set it up that way whether we self-host or host on weblate.org. We want to review translation updates to at least make sure nobody's inserting porn-site URLs.
15:45:31 <warlord> indeed.
15:55:09 <jralls> Just signed in to weblate with my Github id and read the TOS, they're pretty straightforward. There are only two catches to the free hosting: They want a plug in README and once started one has 14 days to finish the setup and request approval to go live.
15:57:29 <warlord> So need some dedicated time to get it configured.
16:22:55 <jralls> We'll see. I started it. The first part took only a couple of minutes.
16:30:30 <jralls> And now it's working slowly through the po files, about 2 minute each...
16:34:00 <fell> jralls, I had started with glossary
16:34:28 <jralls> fell, you mean you've already set this up?
16:35:36 <fell> No, but Pedro suggested, to have it there as own package and all other depend on it
16:36:24 <fell> My collection of thoughts: https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Improve_Localization_Process
16:38:20 <jralls> I don't understand the "as own package and all others depend on it".
16:39:59 <fell> I am not in their terminology. What did yu create?
16:41:19 <jralls> I've created a GnuCash project on weblate and pointed it at the main po directory for the first translation set. IIUC we can have several, so when it's done going through the main files I'll add another for the glossary.
16:41:56 <fell> and htdocs should also be easy
16:42:46 <fell> docs should wait for itstools
16:43:03 <jralls> They should be, though that's a different repo so the setup may take a couple more steps.
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16:44:08 <jralls> Yeah, and I think there will be more to the docs than just itstools. Unless you or I take that over from gjanssens it's not likely to happen any time soon.
16:45:08 <fell> i stopped after the ru removal.
16:46:09 <fell> I understand, if you think, it should not be published, but remove from the repo?
16:46:18 <jralls> I really have my doubts about po-file based translation of long documents though. It's really hard to make coherent changes one msgid at a time.
16:47:06 <fell> That way chapter one will be translated again and again.
16:47:54 <jralls> Nothing is ever removed from a VCS, it's just hibernating. It's really easy to bring back if someone wants it.
16:49:00 <fell> Who knows about it without reading the full history?
16:50:00 <jralls> We do, and nobody's going to get far in a translation without help.
16:50:02 <fell> and patches of the form for LINGUAS do … are no longer appied.
16:50:34 <jralls> We can't do that in the docs anyway.
16:50:44 <jralls> Not even the Italian one.
16:51:49 <fell> 'cd foo; tidy *.xml' e.g.
16:54:07 <fell> replace <foo>something</foo> by <bar>something</bar>
16:54:38 <jralls> The only thing that you can safely do that to is the metadata in gnucash-foo.xml. The rest of the translations differ too much; only German is consistently up to date. Portuguese is only a couple of years out. Japanese is 10 years old and Italian is based on a 6 year old po file.
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16:56:14 <jralls> Even the metadata is dicey, the Portuguese metadata is in Portuguese while the rest are in English.
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16:57:36 <fell> I made several changes on tags that way.
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16:58:40 <fell> and if ru is excepted, synchronisation will become harder.
16:59:12 <fell> or i replaced broken links
17:01:54 <jralls> And did you regenerate the translated docs and proof-read them afterwards? Can you read Japanese?
17:02:03 <jralls> Or Russian, for that matter?
17:03:33 <fell> Example FAQ: I replaced F: and Q: by tags and they got translated
17:04:03 <jralls> How?
17:04:36 <jralls> (Don't you mean Q: and A: ?)
17:06:41 <fell> Question and Answer
17:07:08 <fell> Вопрос, Ответ:
17:07:28 <fell> in https://code.gnucash.org/docs/ru/gnucash-guide/appendixb.html#appendixb_info_where
17:08:40 <fell> D & R in it
17:10:26 <fell> 問 & 答 in ja
17:12:27 <fell> ye, en: Q & A, de: F & A
17:14:25 <jralls> Are you fluent in Japanese and Russian? And BTW, it doesn't look very good it the Italian version.
17:15:48 <jralls> I notice that the user-list link in the Italian translation is to gnucash-user instead of gnucash-it.
17:17:34 <fell> That is part of the shipped localization of the stylesheets
17:19:55 <jralls> So you meant entities when you said tags and DocBook provides translated entities for FAQ Question and Answer?
17:20:27 <fell> it user: I am sure there are other still hidden. Think of plowing and finding a treasure
17:22:28 <fell> <qandaentry…><question>…<answer>…
17:22:45 <fell> gets translated
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17:30:29 <jralls> So elements with additional processing. Surely that's <qandaentry>[text]<question>[text]</question><answer>[text]</answer></qandaentry>; otherwise it would be ill-formed XML. So that's what you meant by stylesheet, that there's an XSLT stylesheet that replaces the elements with a translated Q or A slug.
17:31:00 <fell> And I had no ja, only a few lesson hours and a few weeks presence in ru environment.
17:31:25 <fell> right
17:35:32 <jralls> Meaning that no, you can't proofread the changes to make sure that they produce an idiomatic result. And that's why I think it's a bad idea. It's right up there with using Google Translate.
17:36:03 <jralls> Anyway, GTG. Back in a while.
17:38:41 <fell> I did not change text, I replaced tags, links etc.
17:39:07 <fell> State of weblate?
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17:44:41 <fell> BTW I had asked Pedro in his website translation to replace wiki/De by wiki/Pt and he denied because the wiki is written in pt_BR.
17:47:14 <fell> We made at least one german user happy with flicker.
17:58:06 <fell> Error copying file "LICENSE" to "COPYING". in https://code.gnucash.org/builds/win32/build-logs/maint/2020-12/build-maint-2020-12-14-13-54-53.log seems not to be fatal.
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19:00:42 <fell> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/#information
19:01:04 <fell> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/#languages
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19:48:53 <jralls> fell: https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/838 includes de, fr, and it changes.
19:49:53 <fell> cool
19:50:10 <jralls> The last is a problem for giuseppef_
19:52:10 <fell> and that failed
19:52:50 <fell> Rule Nr. 1: Only 1 lang/commit!
19:54:15 <jralls> Huh? The PR has 3 commits, one for each language.
19:54:43 <chris> jralls: no interest in nix either? it's big in some circles like warlord
19:55:32 <fell> Nr, 2: Language teams need typographical conventions (see de header).
19:55:40 <chris> jralls: #836 could be merged in... can't affect performance
19:56:58 <fell> I meant 1lang/PR is better for review.
19:58:11 <jralls> chris, I don't really see a use for nix ATM.
19:59:00 <jralls> If you want to merge 836 go ahead.
20:02:12 <jralls> fell, it looks to me like weblate collects commits and periodically batches them into a PR and there may not be much opportunity to interact with the authors.
20:03:48 <fell> OK, we can review and apply the commits separate, but that can lead to chaos.
20:09:11 <jralls> I think we have to just accept. I've already added exclusions for the TP langs, I can add more for the ones that we have active translators for like de, hr, and it. For everything else we just accept unless there's obvious spam, otherwise we have a problem with the two repos getting out of sync.
20:10:55 <jralls> Or worse the weblate repo gets conflicts and stops accepting pushes.
20:16:18 <jralls> fell, https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/admin/continuous.html#lazy-commit explains how weblate batches changes. Push-on-commit is currently set.
20:22:06 <jralls> fell, warlord, I just forwarded mail from Weblate. Free is only supported for a single component.
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20:23:01 <warlord> jralls, is that true even if we self-host?
20:23:04 <fell> Ahem, glossary is no component, but special
20:23:57 <jralls> No, their glossary and our glossary are different. For their purposes a component is a directory of po files, and we have 3 that we want to translate.
20:24:59 <jralls> warlord, no, it's Free software so we can install it and host it ourselves. The single component restriction is for them providing free hosting to open-source projects.
20:26:23 <warlord> Gotcha. Is it possible to take the config you did with them online and migrate or (easily) recreate it on a self-hosted solution?
20:27:09 <fell> or is 'glossary/>, Missing license <x-msg://37/#' the reason?
20:29:33 <jralls> warlord, I've put maybe 30 minutes of active work in. Compared to getting the SW installed and configured on code that's of no concern at all.
20:31:16 <jralls> fell, Oh, maybe. I just fixed that.
20:35:48 <warlord> Should it be on code or should it be its own vm? Either way, I need Linas to help with the gnucash.org domain, and he's been fairly unresponsive.
20:40:39 <jralls> warlord, I think fell was right, it was because I hadn't set a license on glossary and a webhook on gnucash-htdocs. I fixed those and it seems to be OK now.
20:40:56 <fell> warlord dont mid, the exclamation mark disappeared
20:41:32 <jralls> Now we need to add you guys as admins. fell, do you already have a weblate userid?
20:42:03 <jralls> warlord, which email would you prefer the invitation go to, mit, ihtfp, or gmail?
20:42:19 <fell> Frank H. Ellenberger
20:42:20 <warlord> ihtfp, please
20:42:20 <fell> @fellen Beigetreten am 10. Juli 2020
20:42:20 <gncbot> fell: Error: "fellen" is not a valid command.
20:45:18 <jralls> fell, you're set up. warlord and gjanssens are invited, they just need to log in.
20:46:12 <warlord> Great. Thanks, jralls
20:46:20 <warlord> I'm heading offline for a bit. Talk tomorrow.
20:47:48 <fell> Yes, now a confirmation passwod is suggested.
21:10:22 <fell> and got a crown
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21:26:48 <fell> they integrated some great tools in qualitycheck.
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