Balance sheet report for a sub-group of accounts
Ben Stanley
bds02@uow.edu.au
Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:14:52 +1000
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Here is an IRC conversation I had with goonie, grib and conrad on how to
solve a problem with performing a balance sheet report on a partial set
of accounts.
I have attached an example book which shows the problem. I have also
attached the reports file - it's name will have to be changed to
indicate where you put the test.gnucash file on your system.
There are two sets of reports - one set (Balance Sheet, Profit and Loss)
which covers the entire set of accounts. The other set of reports
(Working Accounts Balance Sheet, and Working Accounts Profit and Loss)
attempts to privide a Balance sheet report for the Bank Account only,
excluding the Savings account. The Working Accounts Profit and Loss
report displays a bug - the totals for assets and liabilities don't
match with the sums displayed.
As far as I'm concerned, for the reports on my Working Accounts sub-set,
any money moved from savings to Bank account should be regarded as
income by the report, and any money moved from Bank Account to Savings
should be regarded as an expense by the report. Thus, the total of the
Working Accounts Profit and Loss report should be $5,300.00
Bill Gribble thought that he had a way to achive this. Bill, could you
please modify the accounts to demonstrate and post back?
The following is the IRC discussion, which I place here for archival
purposes.
Ben (jalapeno)
<jalapeno> goonie: you might remember I've had some problems with the
blance sheet report
<jalapeno> to do with figuring out how equity is calculated and profit
and loss and such things
<jalapeno> I've now carried out an investigation...
<jalapeno> so I've located the transactions that cause me trouble.
<jalapeno> A bit of background info is important here.
<jalapeno> I have a set of working accounts, and another few accounts
which we'll call 'savings'.
<jalapeno> The savings accounts have quite large amounts in them.
<jalapeno> Including the savings accounts in the balance sheet causes a
bit of a distortion in the figures...
<jalapeno> the every-day transactions are small bikkies compared to the
interest earned on the savings account.
<jalapeno> So I wanted to exclude the savings accounts from the balance
sheet report.
<jalapeno> Everything is fine untill... you transfer some money from the
savings account to the working accounts.
<goonie> yep.
<goonie> that's the problem.
<jalapeno> Equally bad is that earning any income to the savings account
will stuff up the profit and loss wrt the working accounts.
<goonie> yep.
<jalapeno> In order to make it work, you would have to count the
transfer from savings to working accounts as 'income' for the purposes
of calculating the profit and loss
<jalapeno> which, from the perspective of the working accounts, it is.
<jalapeno> (that is, if the savings accounts were not recorded in the
books, that's how it would be recorded.)
<goonie> hmmm.
<goonie> I am not convinced this is the right thing to do.
<jalapeno> are you with me, or am I getting really wacky?
<jalapeno> All I know is that I've shafted myself by putting my savings
accounts into gnucash.
<jalapeno> I can no longer get the reports I need.
<goonie> that is unfortunate, but for balance sheets to work you really
are supposed to have a closed system . . .
<jalapeno> Consider this:
<jalapeno> I want do partition my system
<goonie> and by excluding accounts you end up with something that isn't
closed.
cnrd-away (conrad@203.56.186.198) has joined channel #gnucash
<jalapeno> I want to group my accounts
<jalapeno> and generate reports on that group of accounts
<jalapeno> separately from the other group
Mode change "+o cnrd-away" on channel #gnucash by GNCBot
<jalapeno> and perhaps still be able to generate an overall report for
the whole lot
<jalapeno> This would also be useful for a business, where you might
have one set of accounts for one division
<jalapeno> and another set of accounts for another division
<goonie> jalapeno: for the *balance sheet*, that would be impossible if
there are any transactions between the two partitions.
cnrd-away nods at what jalapeno says
cnrd-away is now known as conrad
<goonie> for other reports, that should be possible.
<jalapeno> transactions between the divisions get treated as income or
expense from within that division
<goonie> however, one way to get around the problem is to create two
dummy accounts, one income, and one expense.
<jalapeno> but from the overall perspective, they are just counted as a
transfer
<jalapeno> btw, this problem affects my private accounts and the church
accounts
<jalapeno> both have a set of working accounts and a bunch of savings
accounts.
<goonie> now, to transfer from a savings account to a working account,
just transfer from the savings account to the expense account, and then
transfer the same amount from the income account to the "working" bank
account.
<goonie> hence, no transfer between the partitioned accounts, and
everything's hunky-dory.
<jalapeno> Now, when I earned interest on the savings account, the
profit and loss calculation in the balance sheet will be distorted.
<jalapeno> (balance sheet for the working accounts)
<jalapeno> I've been debuggin by checking assets == equities + liabilities
<jalapeno> (is that right?)
<goonie> equities including net profit, of course.
<jalapeno> yes
<goonie> yes, that's correct.
<jalapeno> as calculated by the balance sheet
<goonie> would the above workaround I have described do the trick for you?
<jalapeno> Let me get out my test file...
<jalapeno> I fear that the interest income to the savings account will
stuff it up.
<jalapeno> equally, management expenses on the savings account would
also stuff it up... let me check.
<grib> jalapeno: if those incomes and expenses are monetarily larger
than every other income/expense stream, what's the problem with showing
them as such?
<jalapeno> grib: It makes it difficult to see what's going on with your
working accounts... + the savings income is not for general use. Only
80% of it is available for general use (on some accounts); on some
accounts all interest income must be re-invested.
<jalapeno> I'd rather show it as income when it's transferred from the
savings account to the working accounts.
<jalapeno> that fits better with how it's actually used
<jalapeno> (and also fits better with how the books have been done in
the past)
<jalapeno> Our church actually has laws governing the preservation of
capital from property sales... :-)
Mode change "+o jalapeno" on channel #gnucash by Wilddev
conrad realises that jalapeno has changed isp, and goes to modify the bot
<goonie> jalapeno: I see your problem, but fixing it is hard. Balance
sheets are not supposed to have transactions that come from nowhere in them.
<jalapeno> thanks conrad
<jalapeno> goonie: I don't think it's so hard
<jalapeno> goonie: When you transfer something to a selected 'asset' or
'bank' account,but from a non-selected 'asset' or 'bank' account, it
could be regarded as income.
<jalapeno> The other way could be regarded as an expense.
<jalapeno> Though it would complicate how you figure something is an
income or expense :-)
<grib> jalapeno: but it just ain't true!
goonie would be extremely reluctant to do this.
<jalapeno> Hmmm...
<jalapeno> Perhaps we could get further with the 'divisions' idea...
<grib> income and expense are clearly defined concepts; doing things as
you want would REALLY confuse accountants
<grib> jalapeno: maybe you just need some specialized types of reports.
<grib> jalapeno: being an Aussie, have you ever SEEN a jalapeno? :)
<jalapeno> grib: I'm growing them in my back yard.
<jalapeno> I'm thinking of removing the savings accounts from the books
just so that I can get the reports right, easily.
<jalapeno> In fact, if I were to split the savings out into a separate
file, I could get what I want.
<jalapeno> (this is kind of like having separate books for separate
divisions)
<jalapeno> but then I lose the ability to look at the big picture
<jalapeno> but that's not such a big problem for me.
<grib> jalapeno: you could make some Equity "holding accounts" as
intermediaries for transfers.
<grib> transfers wouldn't look like income, but they wouldn't be asset
transfers either.
<jalapeno> The process of splitting the savings out into a separate file
would require splitting up transfers from working to savings as income
in one set of books and expense in the other. (ending thought after
grib's input)
<jalapeno> grib: I'm not with you
<goonie> jalpeno: essentially what I suggested above, but using equity
accounts (much better idea, BTW).
jalapeno thinks that he should make up an example set of books, and send
it out to grib & goonie to see what they do to it.
<conrad> It is hard to visualise what a set of transactions will look
like.....
<jalapeno> That's why I'm making up an example set of accounts.
<conrad> For the multiple divisions in Water Sprite, I've just
duplicated each division under my "Income" and "Expense" accounts.
<jalapeno> conrad: have you noticed that the balance sheet calculates
profit and loss using *all* income - *all* expenses?
<conrad> I haven't worried about the assets and liabilities, though, and
perhaps I should.
<conrad> jalapeno: yes. That is what I want most of the time.
<jalapeno> whereas you would want to calculate the profit/loss for one
division to see if it was under-performing relative to the others...
<conrad> That would be nice, but I feel that is more a report issue than
anything else (in my case)
<jalapeno> Yes, I agree it could be fixed by selecting the income and
expense categories to use to calculate the profit & Loss in the balance
sheet.
<conrad> If we could attach a flag to particular accounts to mark the
different divisions, and then report on them.
<jalapeno> Every account would have to belong to some division
<conrad> Ah, thats where we get to the problem you're discussing.
<jalapeno> that achieves the 'global' requirement goonie was talking about.
<conrad> sorry, came in a bit late in the conversation :-)
<jalapeno> Either that or you would have to deduce the division of a
particular transaction by which bank account it went to :-)
<conrad> If the asset and liability accounts were also flagged.... ?
<conrad> (thinking out loud)
<jalapeno> yes, the asset and liability accounts would have to be tagged
as belonging to some division or other.
<jalapeno> so then you could have a report on just one division or on
the organisation as a whole.
<conrad> Which I haven't done at the moment
<conrad> yes.
<conrad> Of course, that gets very messy when you have a shared asset or
liability....
<conrad> like my company bank account at the moment.
<jalapeno> If the assets are stored in one physical bank account, then
it gets very difficult to split it up in gnucash atm
<jalapeno> because gnucash doesn't really support having sub-accounts on
a bank account.
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Content-Type: text/plain;
name="test.gnucash"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="test.gnucash"
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<gnc-v2>
<gnc:count-data cd:type="account">13</gnc:count-data>
<gnc:count-data cd:type="transaction">7</gnc:count-data>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Bank Account</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">12cf6ff996620fc197f6bb54c8d3740a</act:id>
<act:type>BANK</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
</act:slots>
</gnc:account>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Savings</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">738afb1fa066ea46f657236a49d26757</act:id>
<act:type>BANK</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
</act:slots>
</gnc:account>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Liabilities</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">1299cc750f1563b5f8289271b8045bf2</act:id>
<act:type>LIABILITY</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
</act:slots>
</gnc:account>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Wages Tax</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">99dd0e52fec90513b0da79723f0afe94</act:id>
<act:type>LIABILITY</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
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<slot:value type="string"/>
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<act:parent type="guid">1299cc750f1563b5f8289271b8045bf2</act:parent>
</gnc:account>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Income</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">a1572baba5f55f1354f08a6a434c088b</act:id>
<act:type>INCOME</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
</act:slots>
</gnc:account>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Interest</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">ab25b10d57b693e153efb3c6454947a0</act:id>
<act:type>INCOME</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
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<act:parent type="guid">a1572baba5f55f1354f08a6a434c088b</act:parent>
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<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Sales</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">eea653427e5464d98030f50e9755584f</act:id>
<act:type>INCOME</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
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<act:parent type="guid">a1572baba5f55f1354f08a6a434c088b</act:parent>
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<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Expense</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">8aeb0b8f2d49d88bca12997d386008f9</act:id>
<act:type>EXPENSE</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
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<slot>
<slot:key>notes</slot:key>
<slot:value type="string"/>
</slot>
</act:slots>
</gnc:account>
<gnc:account version="2.0.0">
<act:name>Gross Wages</act:name>
<act:id type="guid">3d3001763eb1cb3da970c442f6d5ffe6</act:id>
<act:type>EXPENSE</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
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<slot>
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<slot:value type="string"/>
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<act:id type="guid">9c5bdb8e5f5234eb767145f8565dbd5c</act:id>
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<act:id type="guid">18105b5cc5cf3f9734bd9ff4982eab30</act:id>
<act:type>EQUITY</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
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<slot:value type="string"/>
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<act:id type="guid">bd136c1410c7c3f3992845afb5a07882</act:id>
<act:type>EQUITY</act:type>
<act:currency>
<cmdty:space>ISO4217</cmdty:space>
<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
</act:currency>
<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
<act:slots>
<slot>
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<slot:value type="string"/>
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<act:id type="guid">bd0259657d83d34a47a86ec1e8d3bc88</act:id>
<act:type>EQUITY</act:type>
<act:currency>
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<cmdty:id>AUD</cmdty:id>
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<act:currency-scu>100</act:currency-scu>
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<split:value>150000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>150000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">12cf6ff996620fc197f6bb54c8d3740a</split:account>
</trn:split>
</trn:splits>
</gnc:transaction>
<gnc:transaction version="2.0.0">
<trn:id type="guid">2efa08f3232d32c332cc65412954dd5c</trn:id>
<trn:date-posted>
<ts:date>2001-06-12 00:00:00 +1000</ts:date>
</trn:date-posted>
<trn:date-entered>
<ts:date>2001-06-13 10:16:55 +1000</ts:date>
</trn:date-entered>
<trn:description>Opening Balance</trn:description>
<trn:splits>
<trn:split>
<split:id type="guid">f02b331857936cb60cf4ecc8143d2042</split:id>
<split:reconciled-state>n</split:reconciled-state>
<split:value>20000000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>20000000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">738afb1fa066ea46f657236a49d26757</split:account>
</trn:split>
<trn:split>
<split:id type="guid">ae3307ced266369dbd3322f58a5a15b2</split:id>
<split:reconciled-state>n</split:reconciled-state>
<split:value>-20000000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>-20000000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">bd0259657d83d34a47a86ec1e8d3bc88</split:account>
</trn:split>
</trn:splits>
</gnc:transaction>
<gnc:transaction version="2.0.0">
<trn:id type="guid">6a93f35d6798b71402a46950fcc1b9e9</trn:id>
<trn:date-posted>
<ts:date>2001-06-16 00:00:00 +1000</ts:date>
</trn:date-posted>
<trn:date-entered>
<ts:date>2001-06-13 10:29:54 +1000</ts:date>
</trn:date-entered>
<trn:description>Interest</trn:description>
<trn:splits>
<trn:split>
<split:id type="guid">4b20cb90cde93f17415c556bcc05ce83</split:id>
<split:reconciled-state>n</split:reconciled-state>
<split:value>300000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>300000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">738afb1fa066ea46f657236a49d26757</split:account>
</trn:split>
<trn:split>
<split:id type="guid">c62469de21b038480b3a7d3ba1cc0306</split:id>
<split:reconciled-state>n</split:reconciled-state>
<split:value>-300000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>-300000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">ab25b10d57b693e153efb3c6454947a0</split:account>
</trn:split>
</trn:splits>
</gnc:transaction>
<gnc:transaction version="2.0.0">
<trn:id type="guid">62457c711e410a3e232bde5bae8cbaf4</trn:id>
<trn:date-posted>
<ts:date>2001-06-16 00:00:00 +1000</ts:date>
</trn:date-posted>
<trn:date-entered>
<ts:date>2001-06-13 10:48:06 +1000</ts:date>
</trn:date-entered>
<trn:description>Management fee</trn:description>
<trn:splits>
<trn:split>
<split:id type="guid">2b42302eec13af778c5aaaa1cad876ae</split:id>
<split:reconciled-state>n</split:reconciled-state>
<split:value>-20000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>-20000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">738afb1fa066ea46f657236a49d26757</split:account>
</trn:split>
<trn:split>
<split:id type="guid">9c52f2c2fcabbecf0838e3416a36b98e</split:id>
<split:reconciled-state>n</split:reconciled-state>
<split:value>20000/100</split:value>
<split:quantity>20000/100</split:quantity>
<split:account type="guid">9c5bdb8e5f5234eb767145f8565dbd5c</split:account>
</trn:split>
</trn:splits>
</gnc:transaction>
</gnc-v2>
<!-- Local variables: -->
<!-- mode: xml -->
<!-- End: -->
--------------070207080407010907060406
Content-Type: text/plain;
name="file%3A%2Fhome%2Fben%2FGnucashTesting%2FProfitAndLoss%2Ftest.gnucash"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="file%3A%2Fhome%2Fben%2FGnucashTesting%2FProfitAndLoss%2Ftest.gnucash"
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; options for report "Balance Sheet"
(let ((options (gnc:report-template-new-options/name "Balance Sheet")))
; Section: Accounts
; Section: General
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"To")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '(absolute 992872800 . 0)))) option))
; Section: Display
(gnc:restore-report 0 "Balance Sheet" options))
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; options for report "Profit And Loss"
(let ((options (gnc:report-template-new-options/name "Profit And Loss")))
; Section: Accounts
; Section: General
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"From")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '(absolute 992181600 . 0)))) option))
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"To")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '(absolute 992872800 . 0)))) option))
; Section: Display
(gnc:restore-report 1 "Profit And Loss" options))
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; options for report "Working Accounts Balance Sheet"
(let ((options (gnc:report-template-new-options/name "Balance Sheet")))
; Section: Accounts
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"Accounts"
"Always show sub-accounts")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) #f))) option))
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"Accounts"
"Account")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '("bd136c1410c7c3f3992845afb5a07882" "12cf6ff996620fc197f6bb54c8d3740a" "1299cc750f1563b5f8289271b8045bf2" "99dd0e52fec90513b0da79723f0afe94" "a1572baba5f55f1354f08a6a434c088b" "eea653427e5464d98030f50e9755584f" "8aeb0b8f2d49d88bca12997d386008f9" "3d3001763eb1cb3da970c442f6d5ffe6")))) option))
; Section: General
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"Report name")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) "Working Accounts Balance Sheet"))) option))
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"To")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '(absolute 992872800 . 0)))) option))
; Section: Display
(gnc:restore-report 2 "Balance Sheet" options))
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; options for report "Working Accounts Profit And Loss"
(let ((options (gnc:report-template-new-options/name "Profit And Loss")))
; Section: Accounts
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"Accounts"
"Always show sub-accounts")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) #f))) option))
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"Accounts"
"Account")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '("a1572baba5f55f1354f08a6a434c088b" "8aeb0b8f2d49d88bca12997d386008f9" "9c5bdb8e5f5234eb767145f8565dbd5c" "eea653427e5464d98030f50e9755584f")))) option))
; Section: General
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"Report name")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) "Working Accounts Profit And Loss"))) option))
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"From")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '(absolute 992181600 . 0)))) option))
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"General"
"To")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) '(absolute 992872800 . 0)))) option))
; Section: Display
(let ((option (gnc:lookup-option options
"Display"
"Show balances for parent accounts")))
((lambda (option) (if option ((gnc:option-setter option) #t))) option))
(gnc:restore-report 3 "Profit And Loss" options))
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; options for account tree id=0
(let ((options (gnc:make-acct-tree-window-options)))
; Section: Account Tree
(hash-set! gnc:*acct-tree-options* 0 options)
"gnc-acct-tree:id=0")
--------------070207080407010907060406--