Getting money for Gnucash development [was Re: Newbie migration issues]

[Derrick Ashby]

Rod Engelsman wrote:

> Robert Uhl wrote:
>
>> Rod Engelsman <rodengelsman at ruraltel.net> writes:
>>  
>>
>>> The point is that they are not one and the same thing -- accounting
>>> and personal finance.
>>>   
>>
>>
>> I disagree, actually.  It wasn't until I started using double entry
>> accounting and gnucash that I started to manage my finances, and am now
>> extremely well off relative to where I started.  The Italians had the
>> same experience when they first invented it.
>>  
>>
> What exactly can you do with gnucash that you can't do with Quicken? 
> I've been using MS Money for going on 15 years now, and I can tell you 
> for a fact that these programs *do* use double-entry accounting. They 
> just don't throw it in your face and expect you to learn a lot of new 
> terms to describe the same thing.
>
> I'm happy for you for your financial success, but I would attribute 
> that more to discipline and (in the case of investments) a bit of good 
> luck. I'm sure that lots of people have achieved the same results 
> using friendlier tools.
>
>>  
>>
>>> Example: In Quicken or MSMoney, an account register for a checking
>>> account *looks* like the check register that everyone is familiar
>>> with. I.e., the columns are arranged as check#, date, description,
>>> payment (or withdrawal), cleared, deposit, and balance. Gnucash is (I
>>> assume) set up to look like a "proper" accounting ledger.
>>>   
>>
>>
>> It's not, actually: the default is to use the familiar labels for
>> everything.  I turned on the accounting labels, but that's an option for
>> geeks like me.
>>
>>  
>>
> I'm not talking about the labels. I'm talking about the order of the 
> columns. When I look at a register in gnucash my deposits look like 
> withdrawals and vice-versa.

This is an accounting thing.  You have to realise that the bank produces 
a bank statement from its point of view.  As far as the bank is 
concerned, when you deposit money into your bank account, that amount is 
a Liability - it's money it owes you.  From your point of view it's an 
Asset.  That's why the columns appear to be the wrong way around to 
you.  If Quicken has the columns the other way around, from an 
accounting point of view Quicken is wrong.

By adopting the accounting style of doing things, gnucash could help you 
look at things from an accounting point of view.  Clearly, Robert has 
found this to be useful.  You obviously haven't.

>
>
>>> I want to keep my checkbook in line, set up a budget, and keep track
>>> of stuff for my taxes.  Eventually, I want to track some investments.
>>> Gnucash is cumbersome for the first task, useless for the second, and
>>> I can't figure out how to make it work right for the third.
>>>   
>>
>>
Can't see that gnucash is particularly cumbersome in balancing accounts, 
not do I see how it is useless as a budgetting tool.  True, it doesn't 
provide a UI for preparing a budget, but it does provide you with all 
the information you need to prepare one.  I do agree that the 
investments tracking could do with some work - it works fine until you 
try to sell something.  Taxes are difficult because they are so 
dependant on local circumstances.  I'd like gnucash to do something 
about properly managing my GST, but of course the US of A is about the 
only developed nation that doesn't have a GST, and gnucash development 
seems to be based in that country.  I'm sure that if the development 
team could acquire some savvy programmers from Canada, Australia or the 
UK they would love to do something about this.

>> I beg to differ.  I'm very happy using gnucash to track my cheques, keep
>> to my budget and track investments--it's done _really_ well for me.  I
>> don't really use it for tax purposes, so I can't speak to that.
>>
>>  
>>
> So where's the budgeting tools? There are a lot of reporting tools to 
> tell you what you have done, but none that I can see for planning 
> purposes. Something that helps you look at your income and decide what 
> you can spend for various things. And this same something to help you 
> compare what you planned with what you are actually doing.
>
> Taxes are an important part of you financial picture, particularly 
> with regard to investments. So if you don't use the tax tools in 
> gnucash, then how has this application helped you in that regard?
>
>
>>> It's unfortunate that developers are in such short supply, because
>>> this project is badly in need of a fork.  One fork to continue gnucash
>>> on it's present course -- i.e. becoming a first-class tool for
>>> business accounting -- and a second fork to adapt it for personal
>>> finance.
>>>   
>>
>>
>> Again, I must disagree.  The core functionality is the same, and
>> end-users see a very real benefit from learning to track their money
>> properly.  Even little stuff like realising that paying $100 extra on a
>> mortgage doesn't cost one a dime (it's a transfer, not an expense) is
>> quite liberating.
>>  
>>
> But I don't understand. Why can't you use Quicken or Money for that? A 
> payment on a loan account is listed explicitly as a transfer in those 
> programs, too. And the docs go into reasonable detail about how such 
> things affect your net worth. If you don't understand those concepts 
> as presented in Quicken you aren't going to understand it any better 
> for having read a tutorial on debits and credits -- which basically 
> have no intrinsic meaning anyway, and are just counter-intuitive and 
> confusing.
>
>
>> I would like to see some of the business stuff pared away into a
>> business plug-in or somesuch, though.  There's no real need for me to
>> see stuff for customer tracking &c. when all I care about is my personal
>> funds.
>>
>>  
>>
> Bingo! I don't need all that stuff either. And a lot of the stuff I 
> *do* need either isn't supported at all or is a lot more difficult to 
> use. I don't say that as a slam on gnucash or the efforts of the 
> developers. It's just obvious to me that gnucash has been designed 
> from the outset for business accounting, and as  a consequence it's 
> only so-so for the average user that needs a personal finance package. 
> In exactly the same way that Quicken isn't very good for business 
> accounting.

What you dislike about gnucash is exactly what I like.  My wife and I 
run small home based businesses, we also have personal and joint 
finances.  To me it makes great sense to be able to run our whole 
finances using one package.  It's true that in order to produce a 
combined balance sheet I have to resort to a spreadsheet, but at least 
all the data is there in one format.  It's also true that gnucash is a 
pretty basic package - it doesn't contain budgetting tools, and so on.  
I suspect that that is a resourcing issue - no programmers, no code.  
That isn't a sign of it being more of a business tool, since after all 
businesses need to budget too.

Derrick