Check printing in windows?

Mon Mar 19 16:02:11 EDT 2012

As I previously stated, I am not a developer and I don't speak for the
project.  Also, I would point out that they have recently fixed the
copy/paste bug and some other Windows bugs, so they do certainly support
Windows, and I would point argue that they haven't been hypersensitive or
failed to support a release in its entirety.  However, I assume you saw
three posts from developers recently, so you can form your own opinion and
make your own decision based on those responses.  Regarding your suggestion
that GnuCash isn't worth taking seriously, I would point back to my original
response with a link and ask if you are seriously implying that Gnome
shouldn't be taken seriously (simply because there is a long outstanding
oddball Windows bug), as your logic suggests that.  Finally, I should say
that I'm glad they provide a version for Windows since I haven't been able
to make the transition to *nix yet, and in my experience, ported FOSS on
Windows has more bugs than the same software off of Windows, so it would be
far easier to not port at all, and this is why I don't complain so
vehemently or endlessly about minor issues (like the copy/paste bug, which
didn't even have a workaround as this printing bug does).  I should also
warn you to be wary of QuickBooks wherein a different file format is used
when you switch from Windows to Mac (in other words, Quicken may have
created the QIF standard, but forget standard behavior when you use their
software).

-----Original Message-----
From: John Layman [mailto:john.layman at laymanandlayman.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 15:18
To: The00Dustin at gmx.net
Cc: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
Subject: RE: Check printing in windows?

Is it really a matter of time we are talking about?  No.  We're talking
about the process (or lack of process) that is being brought to bear on
GnuCash development.  Software has to succeed by some measure, its free-ness
and open-ness notwithstanding.  In other words, it has zero chance of
succeeding (in any normal sense of the word) absent some development
discipline and architectural integrity.  And, oh,  my heart bleeds for what
the developers suffer at the hands of Windows users.  If supporting Windows
is a problem, they ought not be releasing a Windows version.  [Let me say, I
do feel a great sympathy for the developers given the steady stream of
boneheaded questions they are asked here by users unwilling to invest the
slightest effort in understanding the software or double-entry bookkeeping
before venturing to use it.]

What does make for success of a free/open product?  Can you have any
possibility of success absent some defined target? Many of the most visible
and successful FOSS projects succeed because they implement functions that
conform to an existing standard (MySQL, say) or fit within a pre-existing
usage framework. Some (let's use KeePass as an example) pattern after a
feature set already laid down by earlier products and implement only a
narrow functionality.  But what of application software like GnuCash?
That's a horse of a different color.  In the absence of pre-established
requirements, you've got to be attentive not only to the developer
community, but the user community as well.

Those of us who've signed onto using GnuCash for its many virtues have not
done so without making an investment.  If the culture here is such that it
can brook no complaint about defects languishing in its product release
after release, and is hypersensitive to critique of process, then I am
outahere as a user.  This simply isn't Software Worth Being Taken Seriously.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dustin Henning [mailto:The00Dustin at gmx.net]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 12:28 PM
To: john.layman at laymanandlayman.com
Cc: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
Subject: RE: Check printing in windows?

You don't have time because you have a paying job to do, yet you feel high
and mighty enough to blame these developers for not having time when they
probably also have paying jobs to do that take priority?  If they were
aiming to compete with paid products, they'd offer support like RedHat does,
and if you were paying that support, you'd have every right to make the
arguments and complaints that you've made, but neither of those things are
true, regardless of the aim of the developers of the project (many of whom
have come and gone based on discussions I've seen in this list).  My
comments are not about FOSS in general or putting anyone up on a pedestal,
they about your attitude, and my link to the Gnome issue is to show people
who might otherwise agree with your comments how much better these
developers have put up with Windows users than is typical in the Gnu
community.  On that note, the fact that you are thankful for what they have
done is great, but it doesn't change the broken record style soundtrack of
this thread.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Layman [mailto:john.layman at laymanandlayman.com]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 12:16
To: The00Dustin at gmx.net; 'John Ralls'; 'David T.'
Cc: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
Subject: RE: Check printing in windows?

FOSS, schmoss .  If, in fact, GnuCash aims no higher than to be hobby-grade
software, written for the sole purpose of being a plaything for a small
community of dweebs, then they certainly are entitled to navel-gaze to their
hearts' content.  What you are describing is software whose target customer
is its creator and only its creator.  All others take warning.

For the record, I am a developer. And for the record, I am affected by the
defect in question and have implemented a workaround. I have my hands full
running a business that provides management consulting to firms that develop
software that is more than a pastime.  Alas, I am too busy to devote time to
any hobby.  There is much to like about GnuCash, and I am grateful for the
hours the developers devote to it, but spare us the notion that FOSSers are
engaged in an act of heroic altruism. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dustin Henning [mailto:The00Dustin at gmx.net]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:19 AM
To: john.layman at laymanandlayman.com; 'John Ralls'; 'David T.'
Cc: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
Subject: RE: Check printing in windows?

Maybe you should feel more than a little glum about the operating system
choice you made even more years ago, or maybe you should pay someone to fix
it instead of acting like the developers should treat their FOSS as anything
other than a hobby when they aren't selling support or otherwise making
money on it.  I'm using Windows, and I wouldn't like the workarounds if I
needed to print checks, but this broken record of a conversation is getting
old and reeks of undue feelings of entitlement.  Quite honestly, I'm
impressed the developers here are as nice about it as they are as long as
this thread has been going.  I'd expect to see responses more like the ones
here:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=569581

Notice that a lot more people are putting up with that bug and it's not
getting fixed.  Note also that you probably don't find that to be a problem
since the bug doesn't affect you.

For the record, I'm not a developer (or I might try to fix both of these
issues since I use Windows), however, since I have nothing to contribute, my
only response on that bug is to confirmed anoter user is encountering the
issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: gnucash-user-bounces+the00dustin=gmx.net at gnucash.org
[mailto:gnucash-user-bounces+the00dustin=gmx.net at gnucash.org] On Behalf Of
John Layman
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:04
To: 'John Ralls'; 'David T.'
Cc: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
Subject: RE: Check printing in windows?

We are touching on a much more fundamental problem here: the lack of defect
triage based on actual usage and criticality.  Indeed, this mail list seems
to be the only thing providing much in the way of a feedback mechanism, but
the feedback doesn't always seem to register.  I think I am paraphrasing
Gerald Weinberg from a book years ago: "In the absence of a feedback loop,
nothing prevents us from inventing our own reality."  That is
word-to-the-wise it would be well for the GnuCash  developers to ponder. 

I brought up the check printing issue because I think it highlights
GnuCash's Achilles heel: the development culture.   Development proceeds
with little sense of who the 'customer' is, what the usage profile might be,
and the unrealistic notion that it's up to users to invent workarounds for
problems or pitch in on the development effort.   GnuCash faces competition
in the cloud (services like Wave Acounting, FreshBooks and the like) and
there is not a chance in the world it will survive that competition if its
developers indulge more in imaginative navel-gazing about features and the
evolution of the code base than in serving the customer base.  As I read
here the explanations for why the printing defect goes unaddressed, I feel
more than a little glum about the accounting software choice I made a couple
of years back.

-----Original Message-----
From: gnucash-user-bounces+john.layman=laymanandlayman.com at gnucash.org
[mailto:gnucash-user-bounces+john.layman=laymanandlayman.com at gnucash.org] On
Behalf Of John Ralls
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 5:44 PM
To: David T.
Cc: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
Subject: Re: Check printing in windows?

On Mar 17, 2012, at 1:14 PM, David T. wrote:

> The point is that Gnucash will continue to be bundled and distributed 
> with
the Windows printing flaw until someone submits a bugfix patch that can be
tested. So Windows users will continue to know about your fixed file (buried
in the user-list archives), and download and install it before they can
print checks under Windows. 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it just be great if the fixed file were a part of the
application, and Windows users wouldn't have to do all that?
> 

The fundamental problem for the developers is that none of us can replicate
the problem. It doesn't happen for everyone, so we need to know if this
patch in fact fixes the problem for more people than just dniesby.

Regards,
John Ralls

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