Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the Expense account on GnuCash?

Thu Oct 18 23:35:28 EDT 2012

Robby--

In Gnucash, "categories" are handled by having separate accounts.

If you hope to track individual charges on your credit card, then each transaction will have a separate entry in the credit card register. Say you go to a gas station today and buy $20 of gas. You pay with your credit card. You put a transaction in your credit card register that takes $20 from your credit card and transfers it to your Expenses:Gas account. You'll see that each has a $20 balance. Do it again in a week, and you'll have $40 in each. Then you pay your credit card balance with a check. You put a transaction in your check account register for $40, and your credit card balance will be $0 again, and your checking account will be $40 smaller.

When you want to find out how much you spent on gas, create a report that shows transactions to the Expenses:Gas account, and a time frame, and you can see that you spent $40 on gas this month.

Does that clear anything?

David

________________________________
 From: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com>
To: stepbystepfarm at mtdata.com 
Cc: David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com>; Users Gnucash <gnucash-user at gnucash.org> 
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the Expense account on GnuCash?

My thanks to those who have tried to help me. It is amazing to me how complicated this seems to be...considering that I was a math major in college.

I guess all that means is that I can to multiplication and division in my head...but I don't know how to set up accounting books.

To answer your questions about what I was trying to do, I was simply trying to total up all my business expenses--plus itemized deductions on the personal side (i.e.- medical)--and then geta total for each sub-category of those expenses.

I was able to send each expense from the checking account into a sub-category...but I ran into trouble when i tried to allocate certain charges on my charge card to those sub-categories.

I do not have a separate credit card for business purposes. I have a very small entertainment business, and never found it necessary to have one.

So, when I tried to itemize my credit card charges for 2011, I tried to create an "account" titled "Credit Card Business Charges"...and then dump each line item into the already established sub-categories from my business checking account.

That is where I ran into the "Rebate" header. Mike, you told me,"Don't say anything about "rebate" or anything else you see strange about double entry bookkeeping."

How can I avoid saying anything about "rebate" if that is the issue I find to be confusing?

I wound up using Quicken 2000 (12 years old) and it was very easy to create a "Business Credit Card Charges" account...and to subdivide all the charges into different categories.

Maybe I will try using GnuCash for my 2012 business year...if I can figure it out.

Thank you all for your help. I wish I was smarter, so that all your efforts "ain't been in vain for nothin'" (Name That Movie...and who said it?)

Robby

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Mike or Penny Novack <stepbystepfarm at mtdata.com> wrote:

Robby,  
>   You CAN use gnucash for this sort of thing (partial accounting) and there might be very good reasons to do so, for the reports, etc. But you will have a little trouble getting people here being able to help you set this up. Most people using gnucash are doing so for total accounting and will have trouble seeing the possible uses of "partial books". Subsidiary books aren't actually unusual in the real world, but normally the subsidiary books are rooted in/related to a set of master books. Much as a business, in addition to the main books might have a separate "petty cash" book. While I use gnucash to maintain complete books for organizations of which I am treasurer I don't keep a set of personal books but do use gnucash for some partial books (we itemize donations so I use gnucash to for a "donations" books from which I can generate all sorts of useful reports on our giving as well as for tax purposes).
>
>   Expense reporting -- OK, you didn't say if this was for yourself (just tax reporting) or for submission to an employer for reimbursement. Will work for both, but let me point out to those who think little notes on paper OK, as treasurer I have to deal with reimbursement requests say for somebody we sent to a conference and in that role I'd much prefer a proper report I could link to all those receipts enclosed.
>
>a) The fundamental equation must be maintained. Assets = Liabilities + Equity, which if we expand with the temporary equity accounts Income and Expense would be Assets = Liabilities + Equity + (Income - Expenses). Here that will be (and will remain) 0 = 0 + 0 in this partial book (no assets, liabilities, or equities). You may be interested in knowing whether some expense was paid for by credit card, cash, personal check, debit card, etc. so all these will be child accounts of "Source of Payment" whose type will be INCOME.
>
>b) You will want two top level expense accounts, personal and business.
>
>c) This is going to be easier if I use an example? On this business trip you stop to eat and pay for lunch with your personal credit card. That would be the source of payment for the transaction which might be a split for food (business) and drink (personal) -- our organization pays for the food of people we send to a conference but they pay for their beers.
>
>d) The point here is that is will be easy to produce reports with details if the account trees are set up with that level of detail. Yes, from your point of view as the person submitting the claim for reimbursement just need to know the total that was legitimate business expense but from the point of view of the business might want to be able to categorize expenses. Keep in mind the poor accountant on the receiving end who will need to be able to tie receipts to these items.
>
>e) Once set up appropriately the same "partial book" can report for multiple business trips (just use the proper date interval).
>
>f) The "rebate" matter --- ignore. You are being confused by not understanding double entry bookkeeping. Originally the left column of ANY account was "debit" and the right column "credit" (Latin, he owes (me) and he trusts (me) meaning I owe him). Those of us who learned in the old pen and ink on paper days understand all this better. Here the type of account was "expense", an account on the left or debit side of the ledger (increases to the net of the account are debits). The USUAL reversal or negative of an expense would be  "rebate". In other words, gnucash is using "expense" and "rebate" for "debit" and "credit" if the account type is EXPENSE.
>
>   In a way this is related to what I said earlier about the "Payment Source" account being of type Income. Not really Income per se but the dead opposite side of the ledger from Expense (and we usually think of a negative expense as an income).
>
>Michael D Novack, FLMI
>
>PS -- Robby, if you think you will need help with setting this up start a new thread
>1) Be explicit about what you want to do. Is this for submitting for reimbursement? Is this for personal business reporting (in which case might be trying to incorporate some tie to the paper receipts).
>2) Don't say anything about "rebate" or anything else you see strange about double entry bookkeeping
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>Robby--
>>
>>Please use Reply All, and keep this on the list. If you do that, others (with FAR more experience and understanding of both Gnucash and accounting) can chime in with their own observations.
>>
>>In regards to your point: I believe that it will ultimately be easier and clearer for you to use Gnucash to track all your expenses and accounts, rather than some indeterminate subset of them. I do not believe that Gnucash is well suited to such a partial accounting.
>>
>>If all you need is a running total, you might best be served with a spreadsheet. Personally, I prefer having all my various accounts under Gnucash, and I like the fact that I can determine how much money I spend on (say) gas or dining out, or how much interest I paid last year.
>>
>>And yes, if you want to track cash expenditures, you'll have to have a Cash account. Gnucash sets one up by default when you start up. That, by the way, is one area that I have not found a compelling need to track. When I take out cash, it goes into that account (to account for the ATM withdrawal), but I never end up putting in the expenditures that use up the cash in my pocket. Gnucash thinks I am sitting on a huge pile of cash.
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>From: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com>
>>To: David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:28 PM
>>Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the Expense account on GnuCash?
>>
>>
>>Thanks for your reply, David.
>>
>>Maybe I need to make my request more clear.
>>
>>I just wanted to add up all the expenses--in different categories--that I incurred.
>>
>>Yes, the payments may have been made from different accounts (banks, credit cards) but I do not want to have to do accounting for all of those accounts.  If I use my credit card for some personal stuff and some business stuff, 
>>I just want to be able to keep a running total of my business expenses...regardless of where the funds came from. (BTW...what if I pay cash for something? Do I have to keep a "cash account" in GnuCash, too?)
>>
>>Is this something I cannot do in GnuCash?
>>
>>Thanks for your feedback.
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:15 PM, David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Robby--
>> 
>>
>>Please keep this on the list.
>>>
>>>
>>>The whole point of Gnucash being "double-entry" is that you HAVE to have your money come from one place and go somewhere else. 
>>>
>>>Take this example: you purchase a ream of paper for five dollars cash. The transaction would have:
>>>
>>>
>>>Expenses:Supplies  -$5
>>>Assets:Cash in Wallet:   -$5
>>>
>>>
>>>In other words, you take money from your wallet and exchange it for a ream of paper. [Presumably, you got the cash into your wallet by withdrawing from your checking account, and the money in the checking account got there from your paycheck, which is listed as income]
>>>
>>>
>>>To get an accounting of a particular expenses, you can create reports based on the specific account, covering a particular time frame.
>>>
>>>
>>>You really should read more background on basic accounting, as well as the Gnucash Tutorial.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>HTH,
>>>David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com>
>>>To: David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:23 AM
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the Expense account on GnuCash?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi, David,
>>>
>>>
>>>Okay...I understand what it is doing...now how can I stop it from doing that in this case?
>>>
>>>
>>>I just want to add up all the expenses in different categories. I don't need to "balance" out the payments with a "rebate" from somewhere else.  Is it possible to change the "headers" on the columns?
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for your reply.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:33 PM, David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Robby:
>>>   
>>>
>>>Try looking at http://gnucash.org/docs/v2.4/C/gnucash-guide/basics-accounting1.html
>>>>
>>>>You're seeing Gnucash enforcing the concept of Double-Entry bookkeeping. Money flows from one account to another.
>>>>
>>>>HTH,
>>>>David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>From: Yawar Amin <yawar.amin at gmail.com>
>>>>To: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com> Cc: "gnucash-user at gnucash.org" <gnucash-user at gnucash.org> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 5:47 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the Expense account on GnuCash?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>I am forwarding your email to the GnuCash users mailing list, which is a
>>>>public discussion forum where everyone can benefit from sharing
>>>>questions and answers. To participate in the mailing list, click the
>>>>‘Reply All’ button in your email program whenever you get an email from
>>>>someone in the list.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Yawar
>>>>
>>>>On 2012-10-15 09:47, Robby Burns wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>I am trying to set up an account where I can track my small business
>>>>>expenses.
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>Whenever I enter a line item, and put the amount I spent under the
>>>>>“Expense” column, the program creates a duplicate line item right
>>>>>underneath my entry, but it enters the same amount under a
>>>>>       
>>>>>
column
>> 
>>
>>named “Rebate.”
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>I do not want a Rebate. I just want to keep a running total of all the
>>>>>Expenses, with the ability to subdivide the expenses into sub-accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>Hw do I get rid of the “Rebate” column?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I cannot find the answer in the manual.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for your help.
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>-----
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>   
>>>
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>>
>-- 
>There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave.
>
>