Brazilian Users and Taxes

[Henrique Arake]

If I reply here, it'll be posted at the site?


Well, you're right. Brazilian tax system is a mess, but what can we do...

It is also a little more complicated.

The invoice value is the gross value with the taxes subtracted from the
total. At my firm, for instance, we have this situation:

IRPJ: 4.8% from the gross value;
CSLL: 2.88% idem
COFINS: 3% idem
PIS/PASEP: 0,65% idem
Total: 11,33% from the gross value.

So, if I charge R$ 1.000,00 for my services, then I'll end up with R$ 886,70

But, there's more!

If the gross value is less than R$ 667,00, my customer will pay me the full
amount and I'll be responsible for the taxes.
If the gv is over that value, but less than R$ 5.000,00, then, from the
11,33% total, my customer will pay me only a fraction of the total amount,
since he'll be responsible for 1,5% and I for 9,83%.
If the gv is over R$ 5.000,00, my customer will retain 6,83% and I'll pay
5,18%.

but wait, there's even more!

Those values must be considered monthly, so if my first invoice to a client
falls into the first category, I'll pay the full amount. Ok, but if a
second invoice for the same client has a value that, when summed with the
first one, surpasses one of the other two limits R$ 667,00 or R$ 5.000,00,
then for the month and for that client, the other rule will apply and we
have to make the proper compensations.

THERE'S MORE!

If the whole amount sold within the trimester is over R$ 600.000,00, I have
to pay an additional tax that goes like this: ((Gross amount)* 0,32 - R$
60.000,00)*0,1

So, every month, I have to make the appropriate provisions of that value,
just in case.



À disposição.

Atenciosamente,




2014/1/9 Derek Atkins <warlord at mit.edu>

> Henrique Arake <henrique.arake at russomano.adv.br> writes:
>
> [snip]
> > Hello everybody!
> >
> > That doesn't work. The thing is that our tax system is... complicated.
> >
> > First of all, gnucash uses the following formula to compute the included
> taxes:
> >
> > subtotal = total/(1+taxrate).
> >
> > But, in our case, it should be subtotal = total/(1-taxrate).
>
> Umm, that can't be right.  I think you have Total and Subtotal swapped.
> The equation (based on the term definitions) is always:
>
>     Total = Subtotal + TaxAmount
>
> You can solve for Total or you can solve for Subtotal (based on whether
> the tax is included in the total or added on to the subtotal in your
> locale).  In other words, the Subtotal is, by definition, always less
> than (or equal to) the Total.  But that's not the case in your equation
> above.
>
> Let's say your taxrate is 5%, and someone spends $10.  Given your
> equation the subtotal = 10/(1-.05) == 10/(.95) == 10.53.  But that
> cannot be right; the subtotal (which must be less than or equal to the
> total) cannot be more than what they paid you!
>
> So let's go back to the original equation:
>
>   Total = Subtotal + TaxAmount
>
> The TaxAmount is usually Subtotal*TaxRate.  At least here in the USA it
> is, and in many GST/VAT countries it is as well.  That gives you:
>
>   Total = Subtotal + Subtotal*TaxRate
>         = Subtotal*(1+TaxRate)
>
> ... Which is the equation that GnuCash uses.
>
> Now, you might have the strange situation in which the tax is actually
> computed on the total itself, in which case you might wind up with a
> different equation like:
>
>    Subtotal = Total - (Total*TaxRate) = Total * (1-TaxRate)
>
> or
>
>   Total = Subtotal / (1-TaxRate)
>
> Which is probably what you meant above.
>
> > What I did was this. My firm is taxed with a 11,33% rate. So, if a
> charge R$
> > 1.000,00 for a service, this will be considered as the gross value
> charged
> > from my client.
> >
> > So, X = grossvalue - grossvalue*taxrate
> >
> > subtotal = 1000 - 1000*0,1133 = 886,7
> >
> > Then, as X=subtotal, in gnucash it becomes:
>
> ... Which shows that I was right; you swapped total and subtotal above..
>
> > X= total/(1+taxrate)
> > 886,7=1000/(1+taxrate)
> > taxrate=12,77.
>
> Yep, this is pretty much what you need to do.
>
> > The amount is QUITE the same. Apparently, there's some rounding issue.
> After
> > all that, I make the proper adjusts so the total amount of the taxes are
> > correctly distributed.
>
> Yeah, you might need to extend the taxrate a few decimal places to get
> it closer.  It will round when computing your cents.
>
> > We, also, have a rule that says that, in some cases, the client should
> > retain part of the taxes owed by the seller, but we can adjust this
> manually.
>
> Fair enough,
>
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
> -derek
>
> --
>        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
>        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
>        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
>        warlord at MIT.EDU                        PGP key available
>