Unrealized loss

Thu Apr 5 12:45:06 EDT 2018

Alain, Adrian and David T

I also missed the comment that Alain was purchasing and selling stock.  He
goes on to state that the unrealized gains are not what he thinks they
should be, but without purchase price (cost basis) and sales details for an
example round trip security purchase and sale, it is impossible to
determine if GnuCash has been given bad data or if there is a bug.  We all
know that GnuCash only tracks the value within the security account and
does not account for commissions and fees (which do not affect the 'before
expenses' gain or loss on the actual security shares) if they are entered
separately.  Unrealized gain will not go to zero unless all shares have
been sold and the value of the respective security accounts have also been
reduced to zero.

I personally think that the key is to find a way to bring each security
account to a value of zero euros (as seen in the chart of accounts
Present(Euros) and Balance columns) when the number of shares goes to zero.
I use a separate spreadsheet to help me with that.  Before the last share
is sold, there will be an unrealized gain or loss based on whatever numbers
are in the data and how GnuCash has been told to interpret them.

Also, as I mentioned in another message, it would be worthwhile to check
for hidden accounts or other residual transactions or splits from any old
typos that did not get completely corrected.

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 10:03 AM, Adrien Monteleone <
adrien.monteleone at gmail.com> wrote:

> Apologies David,
>
> Somehow after reading over his posts several times, I still missed that.
> And seeing that now, makes my questions moot or answered.
>
> So I’m more confidant to say, “Not a bug.”
>
> The gain/loss calculation is being done on the various prices from
> whatever account he is using to buy/sell shares in. I’d suspect if he
> deletes the prices from the db, the report is still going to pull the
> relevant price(s) based on the commodity setting from the math in the
> transaction. If he bought shares at a lower price than he did previously, I
> would expect a sane response by GnuCash would be to report an unrealized
> loss.
>
> This *might* be related to what we discovered in Feb while looking at the
> Trial Balance report.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> > On Apr 5, 2018, at 6:24 AM, David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I surmise from the OP that there ARE buy/sell transactions, based on the
> comment, "I do not enter share values into GC until the day I sell them,"
> which was made early in the thread.
> >
> > I agree that details are lacking, and I apologize for the
> miscommunication regarding bugs. As I don't fully understand what a True
> Accountant believes is supposed to happen in those situations, I'm at a
> loss to determine whether gnucash is getting it right or wrong.
> >
> > David T
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 10:28, Adrien Monteleone
> > <adrien.monteleone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I certainly didn’t advocate filing a bug on this. I think more sleuthing
> and answers are needed.
> >
> > Yes, I understand the db gets an entry on a buy/sell transaction, but if
> you don’t have buy or sell transactions?...
> >
> > And to be clear, those aren’t ‘automatically downloaded.’ They are the
> result of the transaction math.(perhaps the OP wasn’t expecting them to
> appear, but they really have to if the account is to be kept correct and
> reports work out properly, as you noted) We’re not talking about GC
> downloading new prices each day/month/week without being told to do so.
> >
> > I’m at a loss with this thread because the OP hasn’t made clear that
> there aren’t any buy/sell transactions of anything. They claim they don’t
> use any currency other than EUR and don’t track stocks. The trading
> accounts could still be enabled, and a commodity added to the assets. And
> if this occurred on more than one date, well, then certainly, there will be
> more than one price in the db.(each one generated by GC as a result of the
> transaction)
> >
> > But the OP has been silent on these questions, so it’s probably best to
> wait till he chimes back in to continue the guessing any further.
> >
> > What we don’t know is:
> >
> > Is he seeing this unrealized gain/loss without ANY prices AT ALL in the
> db? And without ANY other currencies other than the default book currency
> in play?(EUR) And without ANY assets denominated in ANYTHING but EUR? And
> without ANY stocks, funds, et cetera?
> >
> > Until all of those answers are ‘yes’ I don’t think there’s a bug at all,
> but rather, either a transaction that is hard to find, or a user
> misunderstanding.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> >
> > > On Apr 4, 2018, at 10:28 PM, David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Adrien,
> > >
> > > Gnucash places an entry in the price db when you create a buy or sell
> transaction.  This ensures that certain reports behave, I recall.
> > >
> > > As this issue has been discussed previously and at length, I would
> hesitate to file a bug until the experts weigh in on the esoteric aspects
> of unrealized gains in gnucash.  Currently, those experts are putting out
> bigger fires.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:35, Adrien Monteleone
> > > <adrien.monteleone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > But the OP specifically said he doesn’t deal with stocks or any other
> investments. So there should be no such added prices. (and technically,
> those would be manual inputs via the transaction, just not via the Price
> Editor) As far as I’m aware, GnuCash doesn’t just grab prices from online
> without being told to in some fashion.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Adrien
> > >
> > > > On Apr 4, 2018, at 3:55 PM, nvsoar <nvsoar at charter.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmmmm.  Seems to me that a price is added to the system any time a
> stock is purchased or sold, or when a dividend is reinvested.
> > > > nvsoar
> > > >
> > > > On 04/04/18 09:32, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> > > >> The value will usually change based on that setting. Sometimes
> ‘latest’ and ’nearest in time’ will be the same, but that depends on
> running the report ON an actual day (not FOR an actual day) that is on or
> after a price update and before the next price update.
> > > >>
> > > >> First, you say you deleted all rates updated automatically by GC
> without you noticing. (does not happen, you have to open the price editor
> and tell it to ‘get quotes’) This leaves the presumption that there are
> other prices in the db that you either entered manually or intentionally
> updated with the ‘get quotes’ button.
> > > >>
> > > >> Then you say there are NO rates in the system.
> > > >>
> > > >> Which is it?
> > > >>
> > > >> If you open the Price Database is there anything at all listed in
> the window? (this includes a Currencies tree)
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you have ANY transactions where you purchased or entered an
> opening balance for a commodity or any currency other than the default book
> currency? (EUR)
> > > >>
> > > >> If you go to File > Properties, is ‘Use Trading Accounts’ checked?
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Adrien
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:10 AM, cageda at free.fr wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I suspect there is a bug that should be reported:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As I do NOT manage currencies other than EUR and no traders
> accounts taking into account share values, I have deleted all exchanges
> rates that had been updated automatically by GC without my noticing.
> > > >>> BUT my Unrealized loss on a given day varies according to my
> setting the calculation mode to "average" or "nearest in time" for
> instance. It doesn's seem to make sense since there are NO exchange rates
> in my system.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Ideas?
> > > >>> TIA
> > > >>> Alain
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> De: "sunfish62" <sunfish62 at yahoo.com>
> > > >>> À: cageda at free.fr, "John Ralls" <jralls at ceridwen.us>
> > > >>> Cc: "gnucash-user" <gnucash-user at gnucash.org>
> > > >>> Envoyé: Lundi 2 Avril 2018 14:52:46
> > > >>> Objet: Re: Unrealized loss
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Alain,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Your new transaction is balanced, and won't affect the imbalance
> in another transaction.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I personally find the unrealized gains issue to be exceedingly
> difficult to understand. Since you say you don't care about this, just
> ignore it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> David T
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 17:02, cageda at free.fr
> > > >>> <cageda at free.fr> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> De: [ mailto:cageda at free.fr | cageda at free.fr ]
> > > >>> À: "John Ralls" < [ mailto:jralls at ceridwen.us | jralls at ceridwen.us
> ] >
> > > >>> Cc: "gnucash-user" < [ mailto:gnucash-user at gnucash.org |
> gnucash-user at gnucash.org ] >
> > > >>> Envoyé: Lundi 2 Avril 2018 13:51:03
> > > >>> Objet: Re: Unrealized loss
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> De: "John Ralls" < [ mailto:jralls at ceridwen.us |
> jralls at ceridwen.us ] >
> > > >>> À: [ mailto:cageda at free.fr | cageda at free.fr ]
> > > >>> Cc: "gnucash-user" < [ mailto:gnucash-user at gnucash.org |
> gnucash-user at gnucash.org ] >
> > > >>> Envoyé: Dimanche 1 Avril 2018 15:34:43
> > > >>> Objet: Re: Unrealized loss
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Apr 1, 2018, at 5:13 AM, [ mailto: [ mailto:cageda at free.fr |
> cageda at free.fr ] | [ mailto:cageda at free.fr | cageda at free.fr ] ] wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hello.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I have have had an "unrealized loss" showing on my balance sheet
> for years. I haven't bothered too much as the amount is extremely small.
> (€7.70).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I had kind advice on this forum as to identify the date on which
> the loss showed up and the procedure to cancel it. I did find the date but
> stangely not the transaction. So I'm not going to keep trying to cancel the
> loss any longer.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I read that, without actually "cancelling" the loss, it is
> possible to prevent it from showing. I know that this is not legal for a
> company, but my book keeping is fully personal so I'd like to know the
> procedure.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> “Cancelling” isn’t really the right term. You need to record the
> loss as either expense or negative income depending on how you handle
> capital gains. There’s an explanation of how to do this in [ [
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-guide/invest-sell1.html |
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-guide/invest-sell1.html ] | [
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-guide/invest-sell1.html |
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-guide/invest-sell1.html ] ] .
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Regards,
> > > >>> John Ralls
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I have identified the day on which the unrealized lossed first
> appeared. I have drawn a transaction report for that day (and the day
> before). There is no transaction that can remotely explain the loss.
> > > >>> I do not handle foreign currencies. Regarding shares I do not use
> trader accounts or split transactions including profits or losses. I do not
> enter share values into GC until the day I sell them. There is no way in
> the meantime GC can take into account a difference in value.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Something might help identify where the problem comes from: I had
> another instance with an unrealized loss as big as my total yearly income.
> It went away a few weeks (or months I'm not sure) after it showed up. There
> is no way a single transaction (or even a few ) on a particular day
> triggered an unrealized loss as big as my yearly income.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What I would like at this stage is simply set GC NOT to SHOW
> unrealized losses/gains. No legal problem as I'm only managing my personal
> familyaccounts.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> TIA for you help
> > > >>> Regards
> > > >>> Alain
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I tried the following:
> > > >>> C an equity account "Unrealized loss" : EUR 7.70
> > > >>> D an income account "Realized loss" : EUR 7.70
> > > >>> The total Equity remained the same - 7.70
> > > >>> I changed the signs and the total equity remained at - 7.70
> > > >>> I don't get it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> TIA
> > > >>> Alain
> > > >
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