[GNC] Reconciliation Changes

Fri Oct 15 02:26:46 EDT 2021

For completeness I should have mentioned that for accounts which have
sub-accounts like those that envelope budgeters will probably have, the
user should view the account in a 'with sub-accounts view' to see
everything that is happening in the 'with sub-acconts' reconciliation
window.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:57 AM David Carlson <david.carlson.417 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> No, Chris.  In release 3.8 and earlier when the user first clicks on the
> Reconcile icon and the pop-up appears to set the date, balance, etc., then
> clicks OK, the Reconcile window opens with every transaction that is dated
> before the reconciliation date and marked "c" in the Reconcile box is
> automatically checked to be reconciled.  Thus the user normally will only
> need to check or uncheck any transactions that do not match the bank
> statement.  If the user was importing transactions so they were marked "c"
> when they were imported or marking existing transactions "c" if they think
> they saw them in their smartphone banking app, those transactions are
> already applied to the target balance calculation and do not need to be
> manually checked.for reconciliation. That is how it worked in release 3.8
> and earlier.
>
> There is another thread that apparently indicates that in the current
> release if some transactions were manually marked as reconciled and the
> user chooses Postpone, when he returns he will find his previous markings
> lost.  In release 3.8 those manually marked transactions will still be
> marked when returning to the reconciliation.  It appears that the code was
> not reverted exactly to the way it was in release 3.8.
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:45 PM Chris Good <goodchris96 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi David (Carlson),
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by “automatic marking that happens when the
>> reconciliation process is initiated”?
>>
>> Perhaps you mean the marking of transactions as cleared when they are
>> imported?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chris Good
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* David Carlson <david.carlson.417 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, 15 October 2021 3:00 AM
>> *To:* Derek Atkins <derek at ihtfp.com>
>> *Cc:* D. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com>; Steve Welch via gnucash-user <
>> gnucash-user at gnucash.org>; Chris Good <goodchris96 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [GNC] Reconciliation Changes
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder if there is some confusion here between manually marking (or
>> un-marking) account and sub-account transactions as reconciled (or not) vs
>> the automatic marking that happens when the reconciliation process is
>> initiated.  The purpose of the pause before committing the reconciliation
>> is to allow the user to uncheck the items that have not cleared to bring
>> the cleared balance to match the outside bank statement or the user's
>> desired result.  I hope that GnuCash still pre-marks all un-reconciled
>> account transactions (and sub-account transactions if they exist and the
>> appropriate box is checked) dated before the reconciliation date when the
>> reconciliation is started, as manually marking possibly hundreds of
>> transactions at the beginning of the process would definitely be a pain. I
>> do agree that each sub-account transaction line should be separately
>> manually changeable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Because I am still running release 3.8 I cannot observe for myself how it
>> works now, but release 3.8 does at least pre-mark all un-reconciled account
>> transactions before the reconciliation date.  I do not have sub-accounts in
>> my data.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:53 AM Derek Atkins <derek at ihtfp.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris, Lisa,
>>
>> Yes, I agree with David here.  It is absolutely quite common (and for
>> DECADES has been the suggested way to do "envelope budgeting" in GnuCash)
>> -- to have subaccounts of your Bank (or other Asset) account for your
>> budget items.
>>
>> I realize that I did instigate your change in PR-713, however to reiterate
>> my original message, "I do not agree with this change AND think it will
>> introduce another bug" (emphasis added here).  I still think the original
>> change you made in PR-670 was wrong.  But regardless, here we are now.
>>
>> In your particular case in bug #797648 I (still) don't understand why this
>> is a single transaction.  If you are using two payment methods to two
>> expense accounts, that to me is two transactions.  They could be processed
>> at different times, post at different times, and they are absolutely for
>> different items.  I don't even know how you can place such an order (well,
>> except, I guess, if you're at a restaurant and order separate checks --
>> but even in that case I don't see why you need to enter it as a single
>> transaction).
>>
>> The use-case of envelope budgeting is definitely more common than your use
>> case, so we should definitely support that.  Perhaps I can propose some
>> additional logic:
>>
>> If *ALL* the splits in a transaction are within the Reconciliation account
>> (sub)tree, then when you click on one, it should be as if you click on all
>> of them.  That would help Lisa's use-case of moving money from one
>> envelope into another, or from the main account into an envelope.
>>
>> However, this (new?) logic will not help in the case of a purchase where
>> you're buying things from different envelope budgets in a single
>> transaction (e.g. you're buying toothpaste and gas in the same
>> transaction).  I'm not sure how to get this and Chris' desire (and my
>> desire) together, because I feel they are all mutually exclusive
>> processes.
>>
>> I will just point out that in the reconcile window, all the splits of the
>> same transaction will be next to each other, so if you're buying
>> toothpaste and gas together, the splits for
>> Assets:Bank:Checking:Toothpaste and Assets:Bank:Checking:Gas will be next
>> to each other and should be easy enough to check manually (because they
>> would both be credits in the same transaction).
>>
>> -derek
>>
>> On Thu, October 14, 2021 7:26 am, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
>> > Chris,
>> >
>> > I believe she's implementing envelope budgeting
>> > (https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-envelope-budgeting-1293682) using
>> sub
>> > accounts. A fair number of users of Gnucash do this, which has been
>> > discussed on the lists over the years.
>> >
>> > David T.
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> > From: Chris Good <goodchris96 at gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Thu Oct 14 03:11:57 EDT 2021
>> > To: gnucash-user at gnucash.org
>> > Subject: Re: [GNC] Reconciliation Changes
>> >
>> > Hi Lisa,
>> >
>> > This change was done under
>> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797648
>> > for reasons explained in the bug.
>> > The first fix went live in 3.9 which forced all splits in a transaction
>> to
>> > the new selected reconciled state when one of them was changed, rather
>> > than
>> > just toggling the reconciliation status of all the splits for the
>> account
>> > being reconciled.
>> > This was deemed incorrect, so a change was made in 3.11 where changing
>> the
>> > reconciliation status of a split in a transaction had no effect of other
>> > splits in the transaction for the account being reconciled.
>> >
>> > I wouldn't recommend running an old version like 3.10. Never upgrading
>> > until
>> > you have to greatly increases your risk of falling foul of a security
>> > issue
>> > (or just a bug) that may have already been fixed.
>> >
>> > I don't upgrade immediately a new version is available, but I do after a
>> > little while so it is likely that any major problems with a new release
>> > will
>> > have been found and probably fixed.
>> >
>> > It seems unusual to create different subaccounts in a bank account for
>> > different types of expenses.
>> > I believe it is more usual to split your income and expenses into
>> > different
>> > income and expense accounts, and do your budgeting based on the totals
>> of
>> > those accounts.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Chris Good
>> >
>> > Message: 6
>> > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:31:44 -0700
>> > From: Lisa Reynoso <mrs.reynoso at gmail.com>
>> > To: David Carlson <david.carlson.417 at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: DaveC49 <davidcousens49 at gmail.com>, Gnucash Users
>> >       <gnucash-user at gnucash.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [GNC] Reconciliation Changes
>> > Message-ID: <916D45E4-A319-4AB9-BFB9-FD7A6557F4C8 at gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=utf-8
>> >
>> > Well, my computer reformatted, so I had to start over. But in almost two
>> > decades, I started over several times, and this last time is the only
>> time
>> > this problem occurred. I can?t imagine that had anything to do with it.
>> >
>> > I?m going to look at an old hard drive I saved from a couple computers
>> > back
>> > and see if I have an old installation file and see what it does if I do.
>> > Or
>> > what happens if I import old files from years back (if they are still
>> > there). I?ll let you know how it goes.
>> >
>> > Lisa
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Oct 12, 2021, at 5:35 PM, David Carlson <
>> david.carlson.417 at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ?
>> >> Sub accounts under the same bank account are not the same as transfer s
>> >> to
>> > outside accounts.
>> >>
>> >> If I recall correctly, they must be of the same type as the parent
>> > account.  I think that should still work as before in reconciliations.
>> > Were
>> > you able to import your table of accounts from an old file or did you
>> > start
>> > over, possibly different somehow this time?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 7:18 PM Lisa Reynoso <mrs.reynoso at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> Okay, first, I don?t know what version I had before. It was about 2
>> >>> years
>> > ago that I downloaded it, and my hard drive was wiped, so I have no
>> idea.
>> >>>
>> >>> Second, you completely misunderstood my problem. I understand the
>> > reconciliation process intricately; I?ve been using it for a decade and
>> a
>> > half. I understand about clicking the ?include sub accounts? box; it?s
>> the
>> > sub account feature that turned me on to the program, since I was doing
>> > that
>> > on paper as my mother did; a computer was so much faster, since it did
>> > most
>> > of the math for me. I like math, but it gets tedious entering numbers
>> in a
>> > calculator. But I digress.
>> >>>
>> >>> There are two basic examples to illustrate. I have a checking account,
>> > divided into various sub accounts, such as gas, groceries, clothing,
>> > school
>> > bill, etc. When I deposit a paycheck, I split the deposit into various
>> > accounts. Likewise when i purchase both food and toothpaste at the
>> grocery
>> > store; toothpaste doesn?t come from the food budget. When I want to
>> > reconcile the checking, I used to be able to check one of those splits
>> and
>> > have them all highlight. So if I checked the toothpaste transaction, the
>> > grocery charge would check as well. Of course the expense account
>> wouldn?t
>> > reconcile; I wasn?t referring to that.
>> >>>
>> >>> But the other example is when I transfer money within the checking
>> > account from one sub account to another. Like my original gas to
>> groceries
>> > (or vice versa) analogy. In that case, when I would check the credit,
>> the
>> > debit would check automatically as well, and the balance on the
>> > reconciliation would not change, because no money actually entered or
>> left
>> > the checking. It was just moved around within it. Now I have to check
>> one
>> > and then scroll down to find the other. I make several dozen of these
>> > transactions every month, and it is tedious to have to check them both.
>> >>>
>> >>> I downloaded version 4.4 when this problem first made itself felt. I
>> > downloaded 3.11 today, and it still doesn?t do what it used to. I have
>> > Windows 10; I don?t know if an earlier version will work or not.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lisa
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> > On Oct 12, 2021, at 2:09 PM, davidcousens49 at gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ?Lisa
>> >>> >
>> >>> > It may help if you can tell us what the previous version was and
>> >>> > which version you have now upgraded to.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On the reconciliation setup dialog under the Ending Balance entry
>> >>> > there is a checkbox "Include subaccounts" which AFAIK by default is
>> >>> > not checked. Try selecting that when starting the reconciliation
>> >>> > and see if that restores some of the functionality you are used to.
>> >>> > As far as I can tell once you have selected that option in the
>> >>> > dialog for a given account it remains in force for subsequent
>> >>> > reconciliations until you unselect it again but I am not completely
>> > sure how sticky that option is and whether it does set a flag in the
>> > account
>> > structure.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Any reconciliation process only acts on a single account and as
>> >>> > such only marks the splits of a transaction into that that account.
>> >>> > You do not reconcile a whole transaction unless you have
>> >>> > individually reconciled  all accounts that the transaction has
>> >>> > splits to. Splits to an account which has not been reconciled will
>> >>> > generally be marked with a "n" ( and maybe a "c" in some cases) and
>> >>> > splits to a reconciled account with a "y". If a previous version of
>> >>> > GNuCash did do this then that behaviour was incorrect. I have been
>> >>> > using GnuCash for a similar period of time and I can't recall any
>> > version in which a whole transaction not just the split was reconciled.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > David Cousens
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> On Tue, 2021-10-12 at 12:29 -0700, Lisa Reynoso wrote:
>> >>> >> I've used GNU cash for years. Like, over 15 years. I used it
>> >>> >> before I was married, so it's definitely been more than 15 years.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Anyway, I never upgrade except when I get a new computer, and then
>> >>> >> I install whatever is the latest, and transfer the files from the
>> >>> >> old version (or in my most recent case, I just started over,
>> >>> >> because the computer reformatted without my permission--yeah, that
>> >>> >> was a nightmare!). When this latest install happened, something
>> >>> >> had changed about how the reconciliation works. Always before when
>> >>> >> I had a transfer from one subaccount within an account to another,
>> >>> >> or if it was a split transaction, when I would check one box in
>> >>> >> the reconciliation window, all boxes pertaining to that
>> >>> >> transaction would check. For example, suppose I had extra gas
>> >>> >> money at the end of the month, but had overspent my grocery fund.
>> >>> >> I could transfer from the gas to the grocery subaccounts, and when
>> >>> >> I reconciled, I could check one box and it would mark them on both
>> >>> >> the credit and debit sides, without me having to hunt for the
>> >>> >> opposite transaction. Likewise, when I deposit a check, I usually
>> >>> >> divide it among various accounts, and all I had to do was click
>> >>> >> one of the subaccount deposits, and all the other deposits from
>> >>> >> the same check would be marked as well. Now, that's not the case.
>> >>> >> And I can't find an old enough version for Windows 10 that does
>> >>> >> that anymore. Anyone have any ideas? It now takes almost twice as
>> >>> long
>> > for me to reconcile, since I have a lot of subaccounts and do a lot of
>> > internal transferring within my checking account that doesn't show up on
>> > my
>> > bank statement.
>> >>> >> Having to look for the parallel transactions or figuring out which
>> >>> >> split transactions go together takes more time. I'm almost ready
>> >>> >> to try to find some other software, but I've used this for so long
>> >>> >> I really don't want to switch.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Lisa
>> >>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gnucash-user mailing list
>> > gnucash-user at gnucash.org
>> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> > -----
>> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gnucash-user mailing list
>> > gnucash-user at gnucash.org
>> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> > -----
>> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>>        Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
>>        derek at ihtfp.com             www.ihtfp.com
>>        Computer and Internet Security Consultant
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> gnucash-user at gnucash.org
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> David Carlson
>>
>
>
> --
> David Carlson
>

-- 
David Carlson