2008-01-29 GnuCash IRC logs

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09:10:38 <Dave_is_sexy> Hi guys. I've never quite been able to understand Gnucash. Can I import my account statements and have it know that payment to "Tesco" is "expense - grocery" etc?
09:12:41 <jsled> yup.
09:12:58 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled. Excellent. How do I /do/ that?
09:13:15 <jsled> File > Import > $file_type
09:13:35 <jsled> In what format can you get your statements? QIF? OFX?
09:13:39 <Dave_is_sexy> QIF
09:13:45 <Dave_is_sexy> and CSV
09:13:47 <jsled> So, File > Import > QIF
09:14:06 <jsled> You should probably do File > New File… first to get an account tree.
09:14:23 <Dave_is_sexy> Then I want to say payments from "x" are "y". payments to "a" are "b" etc
09:14:43 *** warlord-afk is now known as warlord
09:14:43 <warlord> yep.
09:14:46 <warlord> You do that in the importer.
09:16:15 <IanL> hey all,
09:16:42 <Dave_is_sexy> ...what if i've already imported stuff. Or have to import *cough* a lot of stuff. Can I set a rule?
09:17:17 <IanL> I want to compile the gnucash svn with debug but if I pass --enable-debug to configure it turns on error-on-warning and make bails on the first error it gets.
09:17:29 <jsled> not in the way you seem to be thinking. You can only manipulate the mappings through the importer.
09:17:53 <warlord> the QIF importer pulls it all together, so all txns to "Tesco" can be set to Expenses:Groceries at the same time via just a single map of Tesco -> Ex:G
09:17:54 <IanL> If you have lots of files it will remember that Tesco is "expense - grocery" though.
09:18:29 <warlord> IanL: SVN defaults to error-on-warning.
09:18:33 <warlord> Fix the warning.
09:18:40 <IanL> hmm,
09:18:41 <warlord> (gnucash should compile with no warnings)
09:18:47 <jsled> Right, as IanL says. But it only "remembers" on subsequent imported files. So, go a file at a time, maybe.
09:18:59 <IanL> well, it's bumming out on a file I have nothing to do with.
09:19:08 <IanL> I'm just compiling vanilla svn right now,
09:19:29 <jsled> pastebin the error?
09:20:39 <Dave_is_sexy> IanL: Excellent. I shall take a look again later tonight. Can I also say "X% of wages paid of Y% of loan Z" or is that too complicated?
09:21:08 <jsled> say that where?
09:21:49 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: you might want to read the Tutorial and Concepts Guide. It will give you a good base for creating transactions in GnuCash.
09:22:21 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: well, there's an account "loans", so that must have a figure which I owe in it, and each month that figure will decrease, so can Gnucash work out what it decreases to?
09:23:32 <jsled> you can setup a scheduled transaction to track the loan, but only if you never deviate from the original repayment schedule, and don't overpay.
09:23:51 <IanL> http://paste.lisp.org/display/54989
09:24:06 <jsled> You can setup a scheduled transaction to ask you what the values are (i.e., from the statement) as well.
09:24:51 <Dave_is_sexy> oooh that would be nice
09:24:54 <Dave_is_sexy> :D
09:25:00 <jsled> IanL: what version of swig?
09:25:27 <IanL> 1.3.31
09:25:35 <Dave_is_sexy> I noticed Gnucash looks better this year too. Well done to whoever did that :)
09:25:46 <jsled> IanL: and what version of gcc?
09:26:27 <IanL> gcc (GCC) 4.2.3 20080114 (prerelease) (Debian 4.2.2-7)
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09:27:37 <jsled> Interesting. Because just above there is http://paste.lisp.org/display/54990
09:30:32 <IanL> that's your generated swig-business-core.c?
09:30:58 <jsled> aye.
09:31:16 <jsled> yours?
09:31:29 <IanL> hmm. looks like mine didn't get generated with that.
09:31:31 * jsled has swig-1.3.31 as well.
09:32:05 * warlord has 1.3.31, too.
09:32:46 <warlord> maybe we're using 1.3.31 with some patches?
09:35:14 <IanL> mine has this in it but nothing that disables warnings: http://paste.lisp.org/display/54991
09:36:06 <jsled> swig-1.3.31.ebuild here applies no patches.
09:36:34 <IanL> hmm,
09:36:51 <IanL> maybe my source tree is messed up?
09:40:32 <IanL> I think I got it,
09:41:41 <IanL> I think I'm just not versed in git svn well enough yet. I needed to do a git svn rebase because my repo wasn't at the right version so I'll see if that fixed it.
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09:59:39 <IanL> btw: what's the best way to update configure and all that stuff, if say Makefile.am changes in svn. is running autogen.sh again sufficient?
10:01:23 <jsled> usually. except when it isn't. :)
10:02:11 <warlord> many times just running 'make' will rebuild it.
10:02:52 <IanL> yah, it just happened to barf a lot when I ran configure after running "git svn rebase" so I'm rerunning autogen.sh
10:03:11 <IanL> I guess for me it's easiest to make a config directory
10:03:24 <IanL> and run ../autogen.sh so the output is in one easy to delete place.
10:03:35 <IanL> except that doesn't work.
10:03:39 <warlord> ../autogen? that doesn't work.
10:03:46 <warlord> BUT.. you can use lndir
10:03:58 <IanL> it works. but it generated all the files in ..
10:04:02 <warlord> right.
10:04:13 <warlord> autogen only works in the tree.
10:04:47 <warlord> To compile svn from outside the tree you need either a copy of the tree or an lndir tree. and then run autogen/configure/make in the tree-copy.
10:05:13 <IanL> nods,
10:06:36 <IanL> anywho, all is better with configure at least,
10:10:15 <warlord> good.
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10:59:30 <IanL> what version of glade do you guys use?
11:00:17 <jsled> I've got 2.12.1 and 3.4.0 installed here.
11:00:27 <jsled> I don't know if I've used 3, yet.
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11:05:31 <IanL> mkay. Debian test seems to have 3.2.2 and it just seems to quit when I open some of gnucash's glade files
11:07:51 <IanL> particularly src/import-export/qif-import/qif.glade
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11:52:49 <warlord-afk> I've always used glade-2
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12:02:32 <joslwah> I noticed in price-quotes.scm the function yahoo-get-historical-quotes symbol. Is there any way to use it to get directly without writing some scheme code?
12:03:11 <joslwah> And equally, to be able to get the data stored into your current file?
12:04:32 <jsled> I'm not sure that that code works.
12:05:14 <joslwah> Ahhh. Alternatively, given I have the data as a csv, what's the easiest way to put it into the file?
12:05:21 <jsled> http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007/12/2007-12-10.html#T10:42:05
12:06:22 <joslwah> Thanks. How do you remember these things so fast?
12:06:58 <jsled> <http://google.com/search?q=site:lists.gnucash.org inurl:logs historical quotes> :)
12:07:57 <joslwah> O.k. You're google-foo is better than mine.
12:07:57 <jsled> Looking at an old datafile with actual pricedb entries, it looks like you could write some script (awk, whatever) to generate <price> XML entries.
12:09:48 <joslwah> Yeah. My problem is the guid field.
12:09:52 <jsled> The only "tricky" bits are to generate the GUIDs (uuidgen | tr -d -) and
12:10:05 <joslwah> Timing!
12:10:14 <jsled> And the value as a "«numerator»/«denominator»" gnc-numeric.
12:10:44 <jsled> I'd suggest splicing them into the file in the correct date-order and position, but I'm not sure that it matters.
12:11:23 <joslwah> Right. The uuidgen is the fun bit. Once I have that then it shouldn't be too hard to write a quick perl hack. Gunzip the file. Add, and gzip, taking a backup just in case. 8-)
12:11:41 <jsled> Right.
12:11:56 <jsled> Of course, if you don't want to shell out to uuidgen and friends, note that the GUIDs are just random values.
12:12:01 <joslwah> Should I use time based or random.
12:12:12 <joslwah> They are always hex?
12:12:41 <jsled> In fact, the app samples some entropy, then chains forward an md5 hash, and prints it as hex for the values.
12:13:14 <jsled> I'm sure Crypt::MD5 or something could be used nearly identically.
12:13:38 <jsled> Depending on the volume of entries, though, just shelling out is probably going to be as-fast as figuring out the API. :)
12:13:55 <joslwah> Yeah. But I'm too lazy. I'm tempted just to do something silly like have the date as in 20070801, then a magic string, then another magic string to pad.
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12:14:07 <jsled> Ah, heh heh.
12:14:15 <joslwah> Should work shouldn't it.
12:14:19 <jsled> Now *that's* ghetto. :)
12:14:27 <joslwah> What happens if there is a clash?
12:14:29 <joslwah> ghetto?
12:14:41 <joslwah> What's ghetto?
12:15:22 <jsled> Er, a bit of slang. Let's say "that's a hack-that-should-work".
12:15:40 <joslwah> Well, I'm old-school.
12:15:45 <jsled> The GUID is basically persistent object identity, combined with a data-type.
12:15:59 <jsled> So, in this case, the two priceDB entries would be considered the same.
12:16:02 <joslwah> And it's at times like this that I recognise a hack, and just want to know if anything will break.
12:16:13 <joslwah> So, if it clashes with something else, then that's fine.
12:16:42 <jsled> If you happened to clash with – say – a Transaction's GUID, it *probably* wouldn't be a problem.
12:17:04 <jsled> But I'm not clear on all the internal of QOF, so maybe there'd be a problem with the query framework.
12:17:31 <joslwah> O.k.
12:17:41 <joslwah> Does the string have to be hex?
12:17:55 <joslwah> I.e. If I were to use non-hex in there will it guarantee non-clashing?
12:17:59 <joslwah> 8-)
12:18:21 <jsled> I'm not sure if anything will break, but I would not recommend it.
12:19:47 <joslwah> O.k. 8-)
12:30:41 <joslwah> Got it.
12:30:46 <joslwah> Nasty hack, but it works.
12:31:48 <joslwah> Hmmm. I think I have the decimal point in the wrong place!
12:36:59 <joslwah> Want a 30 line perl script, that has not error checking, and would need to be hacked to do a different commodity?
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12:37:23 <warlord> it needs to be hex.
12:37:35 <warlord> it's a hex-encoding of a 128-bit 'number'
12:39:29 <joslwah> warlord, Thanks.
12:39:32 <joslwah> I did use hex in the end.
12:39:44 <jsled> joslwah: Sure. I suppose. We could put it in ~/contrib/ or something.
12:39:45 <warlord> good thing ;)
12:39:56 <joslwah> What's the best way to get it to you?
12:39:57 <jsled> Er. {wc}/contrib/, even.
12:40:06 <jsled> mail it to gnucash-devel, probably.
12:40:16 <jsled> (or gnucash-user, even)
12:40:19 <jsled> Then its in the archives and whatnot.
12:44:34 <joslwah> gnucash-user@where?
12:44:55 <warlord> Speaking of which... Someone just sent me some Excel macros to import a gnucash XML file.
12:44:59 <warlord> I should put that into contrib
12:45:28 <joslwah> What's the hostname?
12:46:29 <warlord> joslwah: gnucash.org, of course.
12:46:50 <joslwah> Sent.
12:47:53 <fell> hi, it seems, rolf replaced in 16680 ":</" with "<" instead of "</". Now <act:name>...</act:name> seems broken.
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12:50:13 <fell> sorry, 16860
12:53:38 <warlord> you're right, it is broken.
12:54:59 <fell> is there a way to revert and apply right?
13:09:16 <warlord> Done. r16890.
13:09:53 <fell> thanks, warlord
13:09:58 <warlord> NP
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17:10:00 <warlord> @nick gncbot
17:10:00 <warlord> chris, andrewsw-afk: could you op gncbot?
17:10:00 <gncbot`> warlord: Error: You don't have the admin capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
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17:12:09 <warlord> @nick gncbot
17:12:09 <gncbot`> warlord: Error: You don't have the admin capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
17:13:17 <warlord> andrewsw-afk, chris, conrad, jsled: could one of you op gncbot` ?
17:13:28 *** jsled sets mode: +o gncbot`
17:13:31 *** jsled sets mode: +o gncbot`
17:13:33 *** jsled sets mode: +o warlord
17:13:35 <jsled> @nick gncbot
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17:13:43 <warlord> Thank you
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17:13:57 <jsled> @op benoitg
17:13:57 *** gncbot sets mode: +o benoitg
17:15:11 <jsled> gncbot: tell ULL you might want to wait around for more than a couple of minutes — and actually ask a question. If IRC isn't for you, maybe try the gnucash-user mailing list @ <https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user>?
17:15:11 <gncbot> jsled: The operation succeeded.
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18:14:34 <andi5> hi... may someone tell me whether functions are handled fine by the expression parser? after looking at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512841 and src/calculation/expression-parser.c:primary_exp i cannot imagine a function with arity != 1 can work without http://pastebin.ca/881443 ... but i may be completely wrong and need some input... thanks
18:15:31 <andi5> oh, and functions with arity 0 make gnucash crash :-D
18:20:50 <jsled> the mortgage functions use these code paths, so they should work.
18:21:03 <jsled> I've seen functions with arity=1 work. I'm not sure of arity=0.
18:21:14 <jsled> There is <http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511606>, but it might be something else entirely.
18:21:45 <jsled> I'm not really in a state to look at that code right now, though. :( Sorry.
18:22:40 <andi5> is there any documentation / example that shows how to use pmt() in the mortgage druid [/me wants to see it work ;-)]
18:24:16 <andi5> ah, it fills the line automagically... [never used it before, actually] :)
18:29:58 <andi5> ok... now i understand better
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18:43:29 <andi5> jsled: maybe http://pastebin.ca/881585 is better then? ... if you do not feel like looking at it now, i can attach it to the bug as well
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18:45:48 <fell> andi5, is there some reason, why you converted SKR04 to utf-8 and SKR03 not?
18:46:07 <andi5> fell: revision number?
18:46:14 <fell> svn
18:46:40 <andi5> well, i will look by myself ;-)
18:48:09 <andi5> was that me?
18:48:38 <fell> skr04 was converted in 16496 (by rolf)
18:48:56 <andi5> http://svn.gnucash.org/trac/changeset/16496 looks like a lame way to convert an xml to another encoding :-D
18:49:48 <andi5> oops, i somehow thought you were rolf right now... trying to ask you why you did it that way... now it sounds like i accuse rolf "hinter seinem rücken" :(
18:50:31 <fell> yes, today he gets his "Fett weg" here
18:50:46 <andi5> uih... i should read the backlogs tomorrow then ;-)
18:50:55 * andi5 remembers xml corrections by warlord :)
18:51:39 <fell> I thought, we had discussed the conversion with cstim.
18:51:51 <andi5> you mean to utf-8?
18:52:37 <fell> Yes, I thougth, it would be good, to have them unique.
18:52:54 <andi5> yep, that is how i feel as well, ... but somehow i hesitated to do the change right away
18:53:31 <andi5> ok... that should not take too long
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18:53:57 <Dave_is_sexy> Hello guys
18:54:10 <andi5> hi sexy dave
18:54:39 <andi5> fell: does de_DE suffice?
18:54:52 <fell> ... and is there some reason, why the template and the final file look so different?
18:55:18 <Dave_is_sexy> New to this. I just imported a QIF file, and told it what everything was with some accounts I made up like "gorceries" and stuff. Now... nothing happened. And my information doesn't seem to be anywhere
18:55:41 <andi5> Dave_is_sexy: do you see a grey window?
18:55:51 <fell> andy5, SKRs are only in de_DE. Swiss has KMU and AT nothing .-(
18:56:06 <Dave_is_sexy> andi5:yes
18:56:18 <andi5> Dave_is_sexy: File > New > Account Hierarchy should be for you then :)
18:56:57 <andi5> Dave_is_sexy: did you just install gnucash and choose to import a qif on the first startup?
18:57:12 <Dave_is_sexy> andi5: yep
18:57:49 <Dave_is_sexy> how does it know what's incoming and what's outgoing?
18:57:54 <andi5> Dave_is_sexy: we should open main window in that case then.... feel free to enter a bug report on bugzilla.gnome.org :)
18:58:30 <jsled> File > New > New Accounts Page
18:58:53 <andi5> oops... i just translated what i see in german here :)
18:59:57 <andi5> fell: do you mean that the order of the accounts differ between data file and originating template?
19:00:50 <Dave_is_sexy> If I have a transaction that is an ATM withdrawal, and I know that £X was for account A and £Y from the same withdrawal was for account B, can I tell it that?
19:01:15 <jsled> Not in the QIF importer.
19:01:32 <Dave_is_sexy> Can I do if now that the file is imported?
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19:01:46 <jsled> But ATM withdrawls are usually between single accounts. Assets:Checking -> {Assets:Cash on Hand} (or whatever).
19:01:47 <jsled> Sure.
19:02:15 <jsled> Can you give a bit more concrete example of accounts A and B ?
19:02:47 <Dave_is_sexy> like travel and food
19:02:48 <fell> andi5: at the beginning the xmlns declarations differ very much.
19:03:09 <jsled> Right. Well, usually you record those expenses separate from the ATM withdrawl.
19:03:36 <jsled> So, there it'd be Assets:Cash -> Expenses:Travel and Assets:Cash -> Expenses:Food
19:04:19 <jsled> But you *could* dispose of either the ATM transaction or the Assets:Cash account...
19:04:26 <andi5> fell: may you give me an example?
19:04:27 <fell> ... but I see now, they are unsorted in the file and alphabetical sorted in the template.
19:04:37 <andi5> :)
19:04:55 <andi5> yeah, attribute order does not matter in xml elements
19:05:45 <fell> but I tried to make some change and then I got a really long diff :(
19:06:29 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: so if I take £50 out from a machine, how to I say £20 of this £50 is for account "petrol"?
19:06:32 <andi5> a change to what and diff between what?
19:06:55 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: first, do you see what I'm saying that generally you don't?
19:07:24 <jsled> If you want to side-step that that's fine, but you need to know that you're side-stepping it. :)
19:08:12 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: no, i don't understand
19:08:17 <fell> the patches I announced in http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504608 comment 2
19:08:43 <jsled> Right. So, the money didn't go from the bank directly to those accounts, right? It took an intermediate step (though the ATM withdrawl transaction) into your pocket
19:08:46 <Dave_is_sexy> also, why does it have my bank balance as sometimes below 0 when it wasn't?
19:08:55 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: yes
19:09:06 <jsled> So, that's 1 transaction. Then there was another transaction when you spent the money in your pocket on petrol.
19:09:16 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: ah. yes
19:09:20 <andi5> fell: cannot you diff two states of your data file: before and after and work from there?
19:09:44 <jsled> So, transaction (txn) 1 would be Assets:Checking -> assets:Cash. Then, a separate txn would be Assets:Cash -> Expenses:Car:Petrol
19:10:30 <jsled> re: the account balance, it might be the way transactions are sorted if you have both a credit and debit on the same day.
19:11:54 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: I see. It's a very nice program!
19:12:07 <fell> andi5: I only tried to change the type of "Forderungen aus Lul" to A/R and "Verbindlichkeiten aus LuL" to A/P
19:12:31 <andi5> fell: then just edit the account template files directly :)
19:12:43 <Dave_is_sexy> So... I also need to say "this account did not start the year on £0"
19:12:47 <fell> but I can create it also in another way
19:13:00 <andi5> whatever you prefer =)
19:13:10 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: just pre-date a transaction between the account and Equity:Opening Balances.
19:13:41 <jsled> You have the option to enter an opening balance in the New Account Hierarchy druid; all it does is create this same transactions.
19:13:46 <jsled> s/ions/ion/
19:14:01 <fell> Yes, but I had to learn the correct name of the types by creating a file.
19:14:30 <andi5> fell: http://svn.gnucash.org/trac/changeset/16891 is for you...
19:15:30 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: How do I do that? It seems to be more of a "look, don't touch" sort of thing
19:15:56 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: which?
19:16:21 <Dave_is_sexy> Jsled: the big main window, doesn't let me add things
19:16:29 <jsled> Oh. Double-click on the account names.
19:17:18 <fell> looks nice, this magic change, andi5.
19:17:21 <Dave_is_sexy> :D
19:18:39 <andi5> fell: so i assume you want to use PAYABLE and RECEIVABLE?
19:19:12 <fell> yes
19:21:09 <andi5> fell: how are you going to send us your patch? is there a bug report already?
19:22:08 <fell> No, I planned to create one after finishing the patchs.
19:22:19 <andi5> i see
19:24:17 <Dave_is_sexy> I notice that money I get is called "expenses" and money I spend is called "rebates". That's the wrong way round
19:24:37 <jsled> Yes, it is. Where do you see that?
19:25:42 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: when I go into my top level account, and there's a table (the tab is named the same as the account)
19:26:41 <jsled> The table is the Register.
19:26:56 <jsled> Presumably, it's an expense account?
19:27:21 <jsled> That's strange. I wonder if the QIF importer created the wrong type of account?
19:27:26 <jsled> Or maybe your file is backwards?
19:27:46 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: I made the top level account include everything, so that I could see what's going on generally.
19:27:46 <fell> andy5, if you like I can pastebin the skr03.diff
19:27:58 <andi5> fell: please do me a favor and watch for the "i" :-)
19:28:07 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: no, the columns behave propperly, so it is the headings that are wring
19:28:22 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: no no. The headings are right.
19:28:35 <fell> Oops
19:28:40 <andi5> fell: actually, i guess i may suddenly feel asleep anytime :)
19:28:43 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: That is, it's far more likely that the values are wrong than the column headings.
19:28:46 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: ie putting money into the "expenses" column increases the balance
19:28:49 <andi5> fall, even
19:29:14 <fell> sleep well, andi5.
19:29:30 <andi5> thanks :-) see you
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19:29:45 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: hmm. What is the name of this "Top level account"?
19:29:57 <Dave_is_sexy> It's just the name of my bank
19:30:08 <jsled> Um.
19:30:20 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: your accounts sound fucked up.
19:30:42 <jsled> It sounds like you have a single top-level expense account with the name of your bank.
19:30:44 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: hmmm. it works fine. just the column headings are backwards
19:32:08 <jsled> So, you should also have an Assets account that's in the name of your bank, right?
19:32:50 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: I'd strongly recommend using the "Common accounts" hierarchy ... it's customary to have a whole tree of Expense:{whatever} accounts.
19:33:08 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: oh. it didn't ask me to do that
19:33:21 <jsled> It sounds like your top-level expense account is really what should be the Expense account.
19:33:29 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: it was an expense account. i changed it to asset and everything inverted
19:34:09 <jsled> But all those transactions will affect both an Expense and an Asset account.
19:34:32 <jsled> The app does prompt you to create a new datafile on startup.
19:34:40 <jsled> But, it's too easy to get around, apparently.
19:35:05 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: why is my bank account an asset account, and not a bank account?
19:35:23 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: also, the option to make sub-accounts into expense acconuts is gone
19:35:38 <jsled> It should be a Bank account; Bank is a sub-type of Asset.
19:35:55 <jsled> What do you mean it's gone? What's gone?
19:36:36 <Dave_is_sexy> when you edit an account and can choose "bank","asset","expense" expense is gone
19:36:48 <Dave_is_sexy> surely petrol is an expense account
19:36:57 <jsled> Right, but it shouldn't be a sub-account of your asset account.
19:37:24 <Dave_is_sexy> but if it's not a sub account i can't see all transations in order
19:37:26 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: There's an Assets account tree and a separate Expense accounts tree.
19:37:48 <jsled> Dave_is_sexy: did you read the Tutorial and Concepts Guide?
19:37:55 <Dave_is_sexy> um. maybe
19:38:03 <jsled> I think you're not quite seeing the nature of Double-Entry.
19:38:26 <jsled> From your bank account, all the transactions will be tehre, in order.
19:38:48 <jsled> In each Expense account, you'll only see the relevant transactions to that Expense Account.
19:39:02 <jsled> But each transaction will effect one of each.
19:39:25 <jsled> Usually, the majority of transactions have one "leg" in the Assets account, and the other leg in whatever the relevant Expense account is.
19:39:40 <Dave_is_sexy> ok
19:39:51 <Dave_is_sexy> but i can only put things in 1 account
19:40:04 <jsled> Ah.
19:40:06 <jsled> Hhe.
19:40:08 <jsled> Heh, even.
19:40:18 <jsled> So, when you're viewing the register for any particular account.
19:40:29 <jsled> Let's say you're viewing the register for your Checking account.
19:40:41 <jsled> It will only show the other side.
19:40:52 <jsled> Because the "near" leg is implicit.
19:41:11 <jsled> Click on the Split button in the toolbar.
19:41:24 <jsled> And you'll see the full/real transaction... with both splits.
19:42:33 <Dave_is_sexy> er.. i see "-£50" split into "+£50" and "-£50"
19:42:39 <Dave_is_sexy> which is strange
19:42:44 <Dave_is_sexy> I don't get this at all
19:42:59 <jsled> In double-entry, every transaction sums to zero.
19:43:03 <Dave_is_sexy> It was working when the headers were backwards, and now its not
19:43:13 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: oh
19:43:18 <Dave_is_sexy> why?
19:43:37 <jsled> Because then everything must be in balance. :)
19:43:50 <Dave_is_sexy> oh. ok
19:44:05 <Dave_is_sexy> how do i tell it my wages account is not an expense
19:44:09 <Dave_is_sexy> it is +++
19:44:25 <Dave_is_sexy> i set it to p/receivable
19:44:37 <jsled> Oh. That's wrong. It should be Income, probably.
19:45:18 <Dave_is_sexy> there's no income option, and in the account it has changed the figure from + to -
19:45:33 <Dave_is_sexy> (since setting the parent account to asset / bank)
19:45:36 <jsled> If you go to the accounts tab, then go to {File > New > New Account Hierarchy…}, you'll at least be able to see the suggested structure of "Common Accounts".
19:45:45 <Dave_is_sexy> ok
19:45:58 <jsled> I suggest you use the Common Accounts, and either migrate the transactions you've imported into that structure.
19:46:17 <jsled> Or, trash this file, start with an empty file using the Common Accounts template, and re-do the import.
19:46:51 <jsled> The benefit of the latter is that your import mappings will be right going forward, and it's probably not all that much more work.
19:47:00 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: yes i'll do that
19:47:35 <Dave_is_sexy> man how picky is that hierarchy? I just had a general "stuff" catagory
19:47:40 <jsled> I'm sorry you're down this path so far. The QIF importer really should … complain if one tries to import against an "empty" datafile.
19:47:44 <jsled> Heh.
19:47:55 <jsled> That one is probably a bit too broken out.
19:48:21 <jsled> But keep in mind that the granularity of the Expense categories directly relates to your ability to slice and dice for reporting purposes.
19:48:29 <jsled> s/categories/Accounts/
19:48:53 <Dave_is_sexy> s/categories/accounts?
19:49:10 <jsled> Sorry. I should have said "Expense Accounts", not "categories".
19:49:28 <Dave_is_sexy> what is it? what does it mean?
19:49:39 <jsled> The "s/foo/bar/" syntax?
19:49:44 <Dave_is_sexy> :S
19:51:44 <jsled> [s/foo/bar/ is the syntax for (s)ubstitution in sed and perl.]
19:52:38 <Dave_is_sexy> in this hierarchy, where do i put the starting balance of my Current Account
19:52:56 <Dave_is_sexy> my heirarchy was far easier
19:54:18 <jsled> Opening Balances are appropriately-dated transactions against Equity:Opening Balances.
19:55:57 <jsled> One way to simplify Common Accounts is to get rid of {Assets:Current Assets}, and just move its children accounts (usually individual bank accounts (savings, checking, CDs, &c.) up directly under Assets.
19:56:04 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: and in 'current assets' we have 'cash in wallet', 'checking account' and 'savings account'. I would like to add 'current account' and let 'equity/opening balances' know that the opening balance i'm about to tell it is for my current account
19:56:36 <Dave_is_sexy> good idea. because non-current assets are irrelevant
19:56:48 <jsled> "Current account" is similar to Checking accounts in the US?
19:56:59 <Dave_is_sexy> which of these do i want to be placeholders?
19:57:16 <jsled> Placeholders are usually the intermediate-level accounts (like Assets).
19:57:17 <Dave_is_sexy> current account is the one your wages go into, and you use with ATMs
19:57:20 <jsled> Right.
19:57:40 <jsled> So, either rename/reuse Checking or just create a new sub-account of Assets.
19:58:00 <Dave_is_sexy> isn't a checking account for cheques? no?
19:58:48 <jsled> Depends. In the US, most have a checking and a Savings account, and that's it. checking, ATM, deposits, &c. are all bundled into the checking account.
19:59:04 <Dave_is_sexy> ah. current account in europe :)
19:59:09 <jsled> right. :)
20:02:33 <Dave_is_sexy> what's federal tax?
20:02:39 <Dave_is_sexy> is that income tax?
20:05:01 <jsled> not necessarily.
20:05:12 <jsled> Where are you looking?
20:05:46 <Dave_is_sexy> in expenses/taxes
20:06:02 <jsled> Ah. Yeah, some of those are US-specific.
20:06:40 <jsled> I'd suggest just removing them.
20:07:16 <jsled> (If you want to write up a list of edits that would make for a good Common Accounts file for en_GB users, that'd be welcome! :)
20:07:31 <Dave_is_sexy> :) ok
20:09:02 <Dave_is_sexy> you have to pay for rubbish collection?!
20:09:36 <Dave_is_sexy> i suppose we do too, just not directly
20:09:56 <jsled> Sure … we're lucky enough where I am to actually have a choice in the matter, too. Most municipalities have a de-facto monopoly.
20:10:16 <Dave_is_sexy> well, at least you don't have to pay a TV licence
20:11:21 <jsled> heh. No, it's more compulsory, even if you don't have a TV. :) Of course, the Public Broadcasting Service doesn't quite compare to the BBC in terms of value delivered.
20:12:39 <Dave_is_sexy> :) the bbc do some great stuff, but they have a blatent political agenda which is out-of-place for a publically funded body
20:13:38 <jsled> Well, you'll get no argument from me; I'm generally against the government funding most anything just because of that reason. :)
20:15:25 <Dave_is_sexy> They're independant of the government at least
20:16:54 <jsled> I'm afk to have some dinner; if you have questions and can hang around, I (or someone else) can answer later.
20:17:45 <Dave_is_sexy> thanks mate. i think i'll be ok now. i should go to bed soon anyway. thanks for all your help
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20:30:52 <Dave_is_sexy> Ah. When I import a QIF now, it auto-matches to my old catagories. How can I reset that?
20:38:24 <jsled> If you really don't care about the mappings, remove ~/.gnucash/qif-accounts-map
20:38:29 <jsled> (while gnucash is stopped)
20:39:01 <jsled> you could also rename it temporarily, if you want a little bit of insurance.
20:41:14 <Dave_is_sexy> Gotcha. I put some things in "unspecified" that i now want to specify, but changing the "transfer" doesn't seem to change the account they are in
20:43:15 <jsled> Where are you trying to make the change?
20:43:40 <Dave_is_sexy> and i moved some things from one account to another by deleting th eaccount (only way i oculd find) and now they're all in 'dual/balanced format'
20:44:06 <jsled> In fact, that's the only way to bulk-move transactions.
20:44:06 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: in accounts, or on the items in the account
20:44:23 <Dave_is_sexy> what if i want to move just a few?
20:44:34 <jsled> I prefer to use the "Auto-split" register view; I just find it useful to see the full balance of Splits in a Transaction.
20:45:10 <jsled> But, in that view, if you change the account in the appropriate Transfer column ... it should, well, change.
20:45:20 <jsled> If you want to move just a few you need to update them one by one.
20:45:34 <Dave_is_sexy> how?
20:45:58 <jsled> what how?
20:46:05 <Dave_is_sexy> and how do i turn off this double view thing? the view settings are the same as all the other accounts but this one looks different
20:46:17 <Dave_is_sexy> how do i move 2 items from one account to another?
20:46:32 <Dave_is_sexy> changing the transfer doesn't move them
20:46:38 <jsled> Yes, it will.
20:46:43 <jsled> What register are you using?
20:46:59 <Dave_is_sexy> what what?
20:47:33 <jsled> You're looking at a register of transactions, right? The register's are "in" or "of" some specific account.
20:48:20 <jsled> What's the name of the tab of the register you're looking at?
20:48:32 <Dave_is_sexy> misc
20:48:41 <jsled> Ah, so that's the expense account?
20:48:45 <Dave_is_sexy> yes
20:49:02 <Dave_is_sexy> and it's different to the others since i moved stufinto it by deleting Unspecified
20:49:18 <jsled> I'll bet you need to Enter the changed transaction to see it disappear from the current Register.
20:49:42 <jsled> Menu: {Transaction > Enter transaction}, or the "+" toolbar button, or "Enter" on the keyboard.
20:50:01 <jsled> Or, clicking to another transaction should work, too.,
20:50:19 <jsled> Except.
20:50:37 <Dave_is_sexy> no... it's the whole page
20:50:39 <jsled> Your goal is to move the transactions *out* of the Misc expense account, right?
20:50:56 <Dave_is_sexy> just a few of them
20:50:59 <jsled> Okay.
20:51:07 <Dave_is_sexy> the rest (atm withdrawals) can stay there
20:51:30 <jsled> In order to do it from this register, you *must* view the transaction as a Split.
20:51:46 <jsled> Via either the Auto-Split or Transaction Journal register views, or using the Split toolbar button.
20:52:08 <jsled> Then, change the split that says Expenses:Misc to Expenses:«whatever». Then, Enter the transaction.
20:52:11 <jsled> And it should disappear.
20:52:34 <Dave_is_sexy> ah. yaya
20:52:36 <Dave_is_sexy> *yay
20:52:39 <jsled> Generally, it's suggested to edit transactions from the Assets account side.
20:54:28 <Dave_is_sexy> i still have this dumb looking double of everything. it goes "rebate: 20, balance: -20, (next line) expense: 20, balance: 0" for everything, unless i change the Transfer, then it goes normal
20:55:25 <Dave_is_sexy> ah it freekin crashed!
20:55:48 <jsled> What version are you using?
20:55:57 <Dave_is_sexy> the newset windows one
20:56:09 <Dave_is_sexy> 2.2.3
20:57:53 <Dave_is_sexy> so it can go online and get my statements it seems...
20:57:58 <Dave_is_sexy> interesting...
20:59:20 <jsled> Sorry it crashed; I usually have a hard time making it crash, these days. But it does still happen. :(
20:59:20 <Dave_is_sexy> it doesn't seem to be quite the same as domestic online banking though.
20:59:39 <Dave_is_sexy> i expect its just the windows port ;)
21:00:13 <jsled> I'm not sure why you'd have two copies of all the transactions … if you hit the Split button for them, what do you see?
21:00:19 <Dave_is_sexy> 4
21:00:35 <Dave_is_sexy> they're all gone now though. lol. i have to re-import
21:00:40 <jsled> For most normal expenses, you should have two splits: One against the Asset account and one against the Expense account.
21:01:30 <Dave_is_sexy> :O i remembered my allocations! :D
21:01:32 <Dave_is_sexy> *it
21:02:43 <Dave_is_sexy> where's a good place to file atm withdrawals?
21:02:50 <Dave_is_sexy> cash in wallet?
21:03:20 <Dave_is_sexy> except that then the +- would be backwards
21:03:27 <jsled> Right. As before, it's most correct as Assets:Current -> Assets:Cash, then Assets:Cash -> Expenses:«whatever»
21:03:50 <jsled> Don't worry about the +/- ... it'll do the right thing.
21:04:02 <Dave_is_sexy> oh. impressive
21:07:45 <Dave_is_sexy> jsled: so do i now go into 'cash in wallet' and split view it and say "also, expense:<whatever>"
21:08:02 <jsled> Nope. They're just separate transactions.
21:08:15 <Dave_is_sexy> um
21:08:26 <Dave_is_sexy> but there's nothing left to transact
21:08:38 <jsled> Sure there is.
21:09:10 <jsled> You've put £50 in your wallet … if you then want to spend it on something, well, that's a separate transaction.
21:09:32 <jsled> The ATM withdrawl is a transaction unto itself.
21:10:48 <Dave_is_sexy> Right. So, I need to say "money from 'cash in wallet' was spent on 'expense:grocery, expense:petrol' etc
21:10:54 <jsled> yup.
21:11:17 <Dave_is_sexy> so.. i'll.. just..
21:11:24 <jsled> I may have misunderstood your question before.
21:11:56 <jsled> {<Dave_is_sexy> jsled: so do i now go into 'cash in wallet' and split view it and say "also, expense:<whatever>"} reads to me as modifying the same transaction that moved the funds from Assets:Current to Assets:Cash.
21:12:18 <jsled> ("also", I think, being what threw me)
21:12:35 <jsled> But yeah, from the Assets:Cash register, use the Blank split at the bottom to create a new transaction.
21:12:59 <Dave_is_sexy> oh a new transaction from scratch
21:13:04 <Dave_is_sexy> ok
21:13:20 <Dave_is_sexy> can i say £X per weekday on Y?
21:13:50 <jsled> Actions > Scheduled Transactions > Scheduled Transaction Editor
21:14:38 <Dave_is_sexy> brilliant!
21:14:47 <Dave_is_sexy> this is really a good program
21:17:47 <Dave_is_sexy> i added a "spending of money" for now. lol
21:21:29 <jsled> :)
21:22:34 <Dave_is_sexy> I have an Imbalance-GBP
21:22:48 <Dave_is_sexy> what do i do with it?
21:22:49 <jsled> Ah, the evil account.
21:23:14 <jsled> Go through the transactions in it, and fix them up.
21:23:49 <Dave_is_sexy> it's empty
21:23:52 <jsled> I have a feeling there is a pattern ot the reason why they're in there, but you'll need to suss it out.
21:23:55 <jsled> Oh, nevermind, then.
21:24:17 <jsled> In 2.x, GnuCash got a bit sloppy about creating that account at various points.
21:24:28 <jsled> The best steady state is that it exists but it's always empty.
21:24:36 <Dave_is_sexy> but it's not empty on the accounts screen
21:24:54 <jsled> you mean it's non-zero?
21:25:17 <Dave_is_sexy> yes it's equal to the money i said i spent from my wallet, which is asigned as Imbalance-GBP
21:25:34 <jsled> Ah ... to where did you spend that money?
21:25:35 <Dave_is_sexy> but inside Imbalance-GBP is empty
21:25:46 <Dave_is_sexy> mainly on travel and food
21:26:05 <jsled> Uh, that's odd. You might try re-opening the register or account page. Or saving and restarting.
21:26:11 <jsled> It might just be a balance-recomputation bug.
21:27:40 <Dave_is_sexy> ah! no, not a bug. just hadn't saved the changes
21:27:59 <jsled> Oh?
21:29:19 <Dave_is_sexy> i had lots of tabs open and was looking between them, but since adding "spending of money" i hadn't closed the "cash in wallet" tab, so hadn't thought to save it
21:29:24 <Dave_is_sexy> so it's fine now :)
21:29:49 <Dave_is_sexy> my liabilities are always going to be red and - aren't they?
21:29:50 <jsled> What do you mean "save it"?
21:30:16 <Dave_is_sexy> "do you want to save the changes made to the transctions?" yes/no
21:30:21 <jsled> Ah.
21:31:09 <jsled> Ah. You may get into the habit of making sure to hit enter when you're done with a transaction to Enter it.
21:31:39 <jsled> Well, really, to hit Enter enough times to get to the next transaction.
21:31:47 <Dave_is_sexy> *nods*
21:31:47 <jsled> (at which point, the one you were editing has been comitted)
21:31:54 <jsled> So, Liabilities.
21:32:15 <jsled> If you didn't muck around in Edit > Preferences – by default – we "sign invert" Liabilities accounts.
21:32:50 <jsled> Such that if you owe £500 on your credit card, GnuCash should read (black) positive £500.
21:33:55 <Dave_is_sexy> oh. i don't think i changed that, but the account is a sub account which i made
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21:34:29 <jsled> As you saw before, your choices for the subaccount type should be constrained such that you can only create new Liability-type accounts.
21:34:49 <Dave_is_sexy> yes
21:34:53 <Dave_is_sexy> i thought that
21:34:57 <Dave_is_sexy> but it's red
21:35:04 <Dave_is_sexy> how do i sign-invert?
21:35:10 <Dave_is_sexy> not in edit-account
21:35:32 <jsled> Right. Edit > Preferences > Accounts > Reverse Balanced Accounts
21:35:43 <jsled> It should have "Credit accounts" selected; does it?
21:36:52 <Dave_is_sexy> yeah
21:37:06 <jsled> hmm. So, it may be that the transactions are backwards.
21:37:27 <Dave_is_sexy> listed as decrease
21:37:41 <Dave_is_sexy> decrease is + giving - balance
21:38:35 <jsled> Hmm. When you Split a transaction, what are the accounts involved. In which column are which values? And what are the headings of the credit/debit cells?
21:40:10 <Dave_is_sexy> Ah, they seem to be backwards. liabilities in decrease and assets is increase
21:40:25 <jsled> hmm?
21:42:07 <Dave_is_sexy> so, if in my liabilities file it says Increase, that's right
21:42:23 <jsled> "increase"?
21:42:47 <jsled> See, double-entry is funny about credits and debits...
21:42:53 <jsled> It can be really counter-intuitive.
21:43:51 <jsled> If you pay for something with your credit card – a {Liabilities:Credit Cards:Bank of Example} -> {Expenses:Stuff} transaction – then both accounts should increase.
21:44:04 <Dave_is_sexy> so if i make it (change it) so that current account is a decrease and liabilites is an increase, then when i un-split it, it says 'current account - increase'
21:45:25 <Dave_is_sexy> now that i've changed it, it's got the liability as a credit into my current account. i think i'll put it back
21:46:18 <jsled> what's "it", there?
21:47:06 <Dave_is_sexy> rent
21:47:13 <jsled> Ah.
21:47:42 <jsled> See ... there's no really an option about which way it goes. :)
21:47:46 <jsled> s/no/not/
21:48:57 <Dave_is_sexy> so to make it black i should...
21:49:04 <jsled> When you say "when i un-split it, it says 'current account - increase'"…
21:49:10 <Dave_is_sexy> yes
21:49:22 <Dave_is_sexy> not anymore. i changed it
21:49:29 <jsled> When you're viewing all the splits, all the values should be positive, of course.
21:49:31 <Dave_is_sexy> cos that was dumb
21:49:43 <jsled> It matters more about which column they are in. left/right … credit/debit.
21:49:46 <Dave_is_sexy> yes they are
21:49:54 <Dave_is_sexy> one in each
21:50:02 <jsled> But, as I said, credit/debit can be really counter-intuitive in double-entry accounting.
21:50:20 <jsled> The registers for different account types have different labels for the credit/debit columns.
21:50:42 <Dave_is_sexy> very. i'm viewing it now in the current account where it makes sense
21:50:50 <jsled> e..g, in Asset accounts it's Deposit/Withdrawl ... in expense accounts it's Expense/Rebate.
21:51:11 <jsled> So, I recommend going by those. If the value in that-labeled column makes sense, then things are working out.
21:51:25 <Dave_is_sexy> but it's still red
21:51:37 <jsled> The liabilities account?
21:51:38 <Dave_is_sexy> is it because it shouldn't be in liabilities?
21:51:41 <Dave_is_sexy> yeah
21:51:52 <jsled> Hmm, then … is it red increasing or red decreasing?
21:52:02 <Dave_is_sexy> it's -£red
21:52:30 <jsled> What are the pre- and post- balance values after a normal Expense?
21:52:46 <Dave_is_sexy> the what?
21:53:09 <jsled> I mean, if it's -£1600 down to -£1500 after you buy something, then that's fine.
21:53:28 <jsled> Er... what are the pre- and post- balance values after a normal Expense on the Liabilities account?
21:53:53 <Dave_is_sexy> it is in the current account. in liabilities there's only one transaction so far
21:54:02 <Dave_is_sexy> so no pre- or post-
21:54:18 <jsled> Ah. So, on the liabilities account, is it red or black?
21:54:23 <jsled> (it should be black)
21:54:31 <Dave_is_sexy> red
21:54:37 <jsled> Oh, wait.
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21:54:48 <jsled> There's one transaction involving the Liability account?
21:54:53 <Dave_is_sexy> yeah
21:54:54 <jsled> And it's from the Asset account?
21:54:58 <Dave_is_sexy> yeah
21:55:10 <jsled> So, it's a payment? Which would make it red, yes.
21:55:12 <Dave_is_sexy> ...which is pretty normal
21:55:29 <Dave_is_sexy> well it is a payment, and it is red, so i guess so
21:55:59 <jsled> yeah. that all makes sense. In the absense of payment off your credit card, what you've modeled there is an "overpayment".
21:56:13 <Dave_is_sexy> *blinks*
21:56:22 <jsled> If you have a positive balance when you owe money on a credit card (as per GnuCash's default sign-reversal).
21:56:44 <Dave_is_sexy> is it that the liabilities account is a borrowed money account, so money in there is owed, and should be red?
21:56:59 <jsled> Then you have a negative balance when you've over-paid.
21:57:08 <Dave_is_sexy> ok
21:57:19 <Dave_is_sexy> so i should move it out of liabilities into expenses maybe?
21:57:34 <Dave_is_sexy> even though one would think it is kinda a liability
21:57:43 <jsled> Well, that depends.
21:58:08 <jsled> If you intend to track the expenses that you pay with a credit card, then you'll want to track the payments against that credit card, too.
21:58:22 <jsled> But as of now, you've just put the cart before the horse: all payments, no expenses.
21:59:05 <jsled> If you're not going to track the transactions of that credit card, it'll be far simpler to treat it as an Expense, rather than a Liability.
21:59:34 <Dave_is_sexy> i've put it as an expense :)
21:59:38 <Dave_is_sexy> all black now
21:59:48 <jsled> heh. :)
22:00:00 <jsled> I do personally track credit card transactions.
22:00:39 <jsled> My goal is mostly to track Expenses, so it doesn't really matter how I've paid for it: debit card, credit card, check, cash ... they're all Expenses.
22:00:59 <Dave_is_sexy> down at the bottom of th eaccounts window, there's a bar which says grand total: assets / profits
22:01:05 <jsled> At the same time, I do a shit job of tracking all the details of my credit cards.
22:01:24 <Dave_is_sexy> i have profits of -£(spending of money)
22:01:30 <Dave_is_sexy> lol
22:02:29 <jsled> heh.
22:02:36 <Dave_is_sexy> why has that figure translated into a -profit?
22:06:57 <Dave_is_sexy> ok time for bed. Thanks Jsled
22:07:07 <jsled> you're welcome. g'night.
22:08:06 <Dave_is_sexy> night
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