2015-11-21 GnuCash IRC logs
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10:38:42 <candyflip> how can I invoice a client for supplies?
10:39:34 <candyflip> suppose I buy a pen for $200. There is a transaction in expenses:office_supplies for a pen, which debits my credit card
10:39:56 <candyflip> (eg. liabilities:my_credit card)
10:41:24 <candyflip> the invoice has a "materials" line item for the pen (connecting accounts receivable to income::reimbursed_expenses)
10:42:16 <candyflip> payment then connects accounts receivable to asset:my_bank_acct
10:42:28 <candyflip> the loop is incomplete
10:56:45 <candyflip> nothing connects expenses:office_supplies to the invoice or payment
10:56:58 <candyflip> so the balance in expenses:office_supplies is false
10:58:28 <candyflip> "view lots..." documentation suggests that lots can tie the invoice to the cost, but gives no details on how that's possible
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11:50:16 <jralls> candyflip: A reimbursable isn't an expense, nor is the customer paying for it income. When you buy it the splits are your CC liability and accounts:payable; when the client reimburses you the splits are your bank account and accounts:payable.
11:53:36 <candyflip> jralls: that sounds mostly reasonable.. but what about the invoice? The invoice form is hard-coded to force an income category, and i think that forces a connection to accounts:receivable
11:56:01 <jralls> I don't think that reimbursables were considered in the business system's design, but I don't use it so I'm not sure.
11:56:44 <jralls> warlord is much better acquainted with it. Perhaps he'll notice and weigh in.
11:59:38 <candyflip> i'm also surprised you mention accounts:payable, because I think accounts:payable is for bills. But i don't necessarily receive an invoice. Sometimes I just go to the store and buy something (which normally should be entered simply as an expense)
11:59:59 <jralls> Sorry, you're right. I meant receivables.
12:01:07 <candyflip> ah, thanks. I'll try an experiment with that
12:03:06 <candyflip> hmm.. i just realized i already tried that
12:04:09 <candyflip> when entering something in accounts:receivable, it can be one of: invoice, payment, or ? (where ? is the default choice)
12:04:42 <candyflip> I can choose "I" for invoice, but then it does not create an invoice.
12:05:24 <candyflip> it's bizarre, because even if invoice 000001 exists already, it will let me create another accounts:receivable with that same invoice number
12:06:17 <candyflip> in any case, it doesn't seem to matter what I choose, because when I create an invoice the proper way, it duplicates the amount in the invoice column
12:06:30 <jralls> IIUC you're not supposed to make entries directly into A/R or A/P accounts. That's supposed to be done by the invoice and bill dialogs.
12:07:16 <candyflip> jralls: i'm not surprised.. even though it allows manual entry, bizarre things happen when I do it
12:08:17 <candyflip> but that goes back to the original problem-- the invoice dialog forces a connection between accounts:receivable and an income account
12:09:38 <candyflip> it seems i will be forced to abuse an income account
12:14:35 <candyflip> abusing an income account seems to work, in terms of balancing everything
12:18:56 <candyflip> so I have 2 txns. txn 1> income:reimbursed -> liability:creditcard. txn 2> (invoice) accounts:receivable -> income:reimbursed
12:19:46 <candyflip> the payment will be txn 3> accounts:receivable -> assets:bankacct
12:21:02 <candyflip> it's a bit perverse that income:reimbursed must be used instead of something like liability:reimbursed, but it works
12:21:55 <candyflip> the perversion is that income:reimbursed always approaches a zero balance (which is what liability accounts should do)
12:26:13 <jralls> How does this sound: purchase txn is "cash"->expenses:reimbursable. Invoice makes A/R->income:reimbursement, payment is "cash"->A/R. That sort of mirrors the way you'd book the sale of a product, with expenses:reimbursable standing in for expenses:goods sold (or cost of goods sold).
12:28:29 <candyflip> that sounds better. i'll give it a try
12:41:08 <candyflip> jralls: that works, but then I lose the benefit of "lots"
12:41:30 <jralls> How so?
12:41:53 <jralls> For that matter, what is a "lot" of reimbursables?
12:42:08 <candyflip> lots works only within a single account.. doesn't span accounts
12:43:20 <jralls> OK, so? What accounts are you trying to span?
12:44:07 <candyflip> maybe it's okay, because I can compare expense:reimbursable to income:reimbursed to see if I missed anything. But if there's a mismatch, it could be quite some work to find what is unaccounted for
12:44:38 <CDB-Man> if it's a reimbursible expense, it doesn't really sound like an expense to me
12:44:39 <candyflip> lots enable breaking that up into chunks, so you know which lot is short
12:44:50 <CDB-Man> should be recorded as a receivable imo
12:45:35 <candyflip> CDB-Man: a receivable is created automatically when the invoice is created. do you mean to manually create an a/c:receivable entry?
12:47:59 <CDB-Man> so, you are trying to use an invoice to account for something you purchased on behalf of a client,, if i got the above right?
12:48:07 <jralls> candyflip: Lots is for grouping purchase and sale of assets. Use an asset account instead of an expense account for your reimbursable.
12:48:45 <candyflip> CDB-Man: yes, the client expects an invoice, so that's where i must itemize everything i am charging them for
12:49:31 <CDB-Man> therein lies the problem I suppose; since i assume the invoice feature was never setup to allow a non-income receivable
12:53:50 <candyflip> CDB-Man: sounds about right. Although a resale *could* be marked up for a profit (and often is). I just happen to charge my client cost for materials. This makes me think income:reimbursables for both the purchase and sale is more appropriate.
12:54:35 <CDB-Man> that would be inflation of revenues and COGS if you dont intend on making a profit, imo
12:54:51 <CDB-Man> sure, it nets to 0, but it inflates top line revenue
12:55:29 <candyflip> jralls: but an asset account can only touch a/r for payment, not the invoice, so i'm not sure how that could work
12:55:54 <candyflip> CDB-Man: but isn't it proper to consider it revenue?
12:55:58 <CDB-Man> hmm, you'd debit the AR to create the AR, instead of debiting the expense
12:56:29 <CDB-Man> if the economic substance is not intended to be a for-profit transaction, i wouldn't really call it revenue
12:57:07 <CDB-Man> if you charge a fee for your service though, then that's different
12:57:36 <CDB-Man> resale at cost + fee, then technically only the fee part would qualify as revenue if all the materials are always sold at cost
12:57:59 <CDB-Man> if the fee is non-contingent on the price of the materials itself, ie as a markup %
12:59:40 <CDB-Man> i just feel it's a very aggressive revenue recognition if you are recognizing the full receivable as revenue if your intention is to always sell the materials at cost
13:00:01 <CDB-Man> (+ the accompanying cost of goods sold)
13:03:48 <candyflip> well, in reality these books are only used for myself, and for generating invoices. the company accountant has a separate set of books for tax filing. so i never look at revenue, and his books are out of sync with mine
13:03:52 <candyflip> it is a mess, i know
13:04:18 <CDB-Man> well then...
13:04:56 <candyflip> my books serve some purposes, his incompatible books serve another purpose
13:06:21 <CDB-Man> then... dunno, i dont think i can add much value
13:07:18 <candyflip> so from a utilitarian standpoint, for the purpose my books are serving, it seems like income:reimbursable for both the cost and sale makes the most sense (using lots to track things)
13:07:38 <candyflip> anyway, I appreciate the advice from both of you
13:08:06 <CDB-Man> i happen to be a cpa, so this stuff excites me I suppose :P
13:09:15 <candyflip> my overall view is that gnucash is falling short on this
13:10:29 <candyflip> i should really be able to have income:server_hardware and expense:server_hardware, and have lots that span the two accounts (or some way of linking reimbursements)
13:11:15 <candyflip> so no matter what i have to hack or abuse something to function
13:15:41 <jralls> candyflip: That's perhaps a valid complaint, but GnuCash is about doing the right thing according to accounting rules. CDB-Man, what's the legal way to handle candyflip's problem?
13:16:33 <CDB-Man> well, like i mentioned, it's about how the transactions are structured from a legal form, and based on that, what revenue recognition to use
13:17:32 <CDB-Man> ie, if what you're reselling has a markup built into the materials list price, then of course you'd recognize the full amounts as revenue and expense, since that's liek any other retailer, where you sell on markup
13:17:59 <CDB-Man> but if everything is sold at cost, and you make money charging a separate service fee, then well, it depends on how the service fee is structured
13:18:46 <CDB-Man> if the service fee is determined more or less independently of the underlying materials... then i would probably call it agressive to recognize the value of the materials given up as revenue and cost of goods sold
13:19:20 <candyflip> it's similar to travel expenses. imagine if I occasionally travel somewhere, and the client wants to reimburse room and board. it would not make sense for me to mark that up if i itemize the costs
13:19:46 <CDB-Man> well yeah, for that, when you incur the charge on the CC, it would be debit A/R, credit CC
13:20:16 <CDB-Man> then the reimbursement debit cash, credit AR (then go pay off the CC after of course)
13:20:38 <CDB-Man> the A/R would be named something like "client reimbursed expenses"
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13:21:16 <CDB-Man> thing is with selling things at cost though
13:21:36 <candyflip> CDB-Man: it sounds like you're implying there would be multiple A/R accounts, is that correct?
13:21:46 <CDB-Man> multiple in what sense
13:22:24 <candyflip> well if there is "a/r reimbursed expenses", there would also have to be "a/r labor"
13:22:44 <CDB-Man> well
13:23:18 <CDB-Man> wait a second, what does labor have to do with reimbursed travel costs?
13:23:30 <CDB-Man> and also, in your example of materials resale, the materials may still be counted as inventory, and for that purpose, should still be recognized via revenue and cost of goods sold
13:23:37 <candyflip> which i'm not opposed to.. i guess labor and reimbursables would be separate invoices
13:24:09 <CDB-Man> if the resale of your materials is prt of your regular business
13:24:34 <CDB-Man> well, labor, if that's what you're earning for doing the job, that ought to be income
13:24:48 <CDB-Man> like if you did work, and that work required travel
13:24:52 <CDB-Man> and you invoiced the client
13:25:11 <CDB-Man> the travel reimbursement id probably call a receivable
13:25:12 <candyflip> to be clear, I never sell the client any goods.. only service
13:25:23 <candyflip> i buy goods in the course of offering the service
13:25:34 <CDB-Man> hmm, that's what I thought
13:26:18 <CDB-Man> do you keep constant inventory of these materials?
13:26:27 <CDB-Man> or do you buy them on a contract per contract basis?
13:27:01 <CDB-Man> ie, if you were a wood worker, do you always have a warehouse full of wood, or do you go out and buy wood on an as-needed basis
13:27:49 <candyflip> i don't keep an inventory really, but I can always construct an inventory list just by printing my "expenses:server" register, for example
13:28:38 <candyflip> i buy things as-needed, generally somewhat spontaneously
13:28:38 <CDB-Man> if you dont keep an inventory, and you more or less only buy materials on an as-needed basis
13:28:47 <CDB-Man> then yeah i would not count that as revenue
13:29:02 <CDB-Man> your transaction would prob look something like this:
13:31:30 <CDB-Man> debit: AR materials, AR travel cost reimbursement, AR sales receivables (id probably name the client, like "AR ABC Inc")
13:31:30 <CDB-Man> credit: "income - service revenue" (this is your labor), materials on hand/cc, cc for airfare
13:31:32 <CDB-Man> something like that
13:33:40 <CDB-Man> essentially, the take away is that, as you incur your materials costs and airfare costs, you shouldnt be debiting expenses, cause those are fully reimbursed, so they should go to a receivable
13:34:21 <CDB-Man> the revenue you're making is your labor and anything else you may charge that's not directly linked to the reimbursemnt of something
13:35:11 <CDB-Man> there's no requirement per se to have separate AR tracking for the reimbursements; you cna just as well group all 3 AR into a single AR account too
13:35:41 <CDB-Man> but, only the labor should be revenue, if that's the only portion you're expected to make a profit on (cause everything else is a reimbursment)
13:35:58 <CDB-Man> breaking the AR inot 3 parts makes it easier to track, of course
13:36:12 <CDB-Man> (personally i break it up in my own set of books)
13:37:10 <candyflip> breaking the A/R up means those things could not be combined on the same invoice, correct? I have no problem with that though
13:38:30 <candyflip> some clients might prefer everything on one invoice, but I suppose I'm lucky (flexible client)
13:39:50 <CDB-Man> i dont know how that ties in to gnucash functionality per se; not like we use gnucash at home :P
13:40:03 <CDB-Man> you could always use sub-accoubts
13:40:14 <CDB-Man> sub-accounts, and invoice the parent account
13:40:57 <candyflip> CDB-Man: well, each invoice has exactly one "posted account", which is the A/R.
13:41:17 <CDB-Man> see what happens if you group these things in sub accounts
13:41:21 <CDB-Man> the parent could be the client name
13:41:27 <CDB-Man> the sub accounts the various breakdowns
13:41:47 <candyflip> sub-accounts for A/R would scare me, because then they wouldn't maintain a zero balance
13:41:58 <CDB-Man> hmm?
13:42:07 <CDB-Man> oh, right, the AR mechanism
13:42:28 <CDB-Man> well, i dunno how the invoice feature works, but can it itemize the transactions in the AR?
13:42:40 <CDB-Man> then you can debit the 3 charges to AR as 3 transactions
13:42:47 <candyflip> iow, i would be tempted to call the parent A/R account a "placeholder" account
13:42:51 <CDB-Man> as opposed to 1 transaction with 3 splits
13:43:23 <candyflip> that's not an option.. only one A/R account field for the whole invoice
13:43:40 <CDB-Man> and no option to itemize out un-billed transactions?
13:43:48 <candyflip> then each line item can be a different income account, if needed
13:44:10 <CDB-Man> well, i dont know enough about the invoice feature to help you out there
13:44:24 <CDB-Man> but i think ive basically said all i can now in regards to reporting this stuff
13:44:51 <candyflip> i could still do the separate A/R's.. it just has to be different invoices for each A/R
13:45:06 <candyflip> thanks for the help, I appreciate it
13:47:01 <CDB-Man> i do what I can :P
13:47:26 <CDB-Man> now, the only thing that's pissing me off about gnucash right now is the advanced portfolio report
13:47:46 <CDB-Man> it doesnt take the split activity type into account, it only treats expense splits as investment commissions
13:48:00 <CDB-Man> if i mark a split as a "fee" type, it doesn't do anything with that designation
13:48:10 <CDB-Man> i want to capitalize fees directly into the asset account
13:48:31 <CDB-Man> and i suck at scheme, so i tried and failed to re-write the adv portfolio report
13:48:45 <CDB-Man> jralls your thoughts :P
13:49:11 <jralls> CDB-Man: Why break fees out from the commission? For that matter, why break out the commission, either?
13:49:46 <CDB-Man> well
13:49:55 <jralls> The IRS cares only about your gross cost and net receipt.
13:49:59 <CDB-Man> given how the commodity view works, you need to enter a unit price + qualtity
13:50:13 <CDB-Man> the finance:quote plugin pulls price
13:50:31 <CDB-Man> so i would need to factor in commission as a separate split
13:50:42 <jralls> Nope, you have to enter two of shares, price, and value. GnuCash computes whichever one you leave out.
13:50:59 <CDB-Man> commissions on purchase im taling about
13:51:14 <CDB-Man> well yah, but if i enter 10 shares @ $10, that's 100, but my commissions of $5 are left out
13:51:20 <CDB-Man> i want that capitalized into the asset
13:51:27 <CDB-Man> and not as an expense on my income statement
13:51:48 <jralls> So enter 10 shares for $105.
13:52:02 <CDB-Man> but then the price doesnt reflect the market price at time of purchase
13:52:27 <CDB-Man> note that, this is in reference to personal usage, not IRS reporting
13:52:41 <jralls> So? Unless it's a really thinly traded stock, your purchase price reflects the market price for maybe 10 nanoseconds anyway.
13:52:53 <CDB-Man> the adv portfolio report's commissions column only picks up on commissions if its a debit to an expense
13:53:12 <CDB-Man> well, i track my investment portfolio in quite the amount of detail
13:53:32 <CDB-Man> and I dont want commissions on purchase to show up on the I/S
13:53:53 <CDB-Man> which is currently how i'd have to do it for it to show up in the commissions column of the adv portfolio report
13:54:28 <jralls> I/S?
13:55:22 <CDB-Man> income statement
13:56:21 <jralls> Ah. Well, create an expense account just for commissions and don't include it in the P&L Report's list of accounts.
13:57:26 <jralls> But that doesn't do anything for capitalizing the fees and commissions, though I suppose if you're not using GC for creating your sked D that doesn't matter so much.
13:57:46 <CDB-Man> hmm, that would work for the IS, but that would throw off retained earnings on the B/S (balance sheet)
13:57:49 <CDB-Man> yeah, no capitalization
13:58:07 <jralls> Weird, though, that the Advanced Portfolio Report would insist on commissions going to an expense account. The maintainer is American.
13:58:52 <CDB-Man> yeah, commissions should generally be calitalized, unless this guy is taking the agressive approach in that it's a current year investment expense
13:59:32 <CDB-Man> i jut wish it would have used those activity flags
13:59:39 <CDB-Man> buy/sell/dividend/fee
13:59:42 <jralls> You have to have a lot of investment expense for that to do you any good. That's hard to do in this age of <$10 commissions.
14:00:07 <CDB-Man> yeah, well, recognizing the commissions on purchase today, is generating cash flow now
14:00:20 <CDB-Man> as opposed to waiting until the cost is claimed when you sell in the future
14:00:22 <CDB-Man> so there's that
14:00:35 <CDB-Man> current vs future year reduction of AGI
14:00:50 <CDB-Man> it's like borrowing against the IRS!
14:01:40 <CDB-Man> hmm, my brother is a programmer, perhaps i should bug him to go and see if he can edit the scheme... but he's got 4 midterms coming up...
14:02:31 <jralls> Umm, I hate to argue with a CPA about tax deductions, but last I checked investment expenses has a floor of some percentage of AGI -- 7% sticks in my mind for some reason -- and unless you meet that you don't get to take the deduction.
14:03:02 <CDB-Man> yes, there's that limitation in place
14:03:30 <CDB-Man> i believe it's actually part of the 2% limitation, and it's also subject to itemized deduction phaseout
14:03:49 <CDB-Man> hmm, actually, that's investment interest
14:04:16 <candyflip> CDB-Man: I avoid being confined to gnucash reports/invoicing limitations by using ledger-cli to extract transaction from the gnucash data file, which can then be fed to a tool of any language you want
14:04:20 <CDB-Man> well, I believe both of them are claimed on the same line
14:04:44 <CDB-Man> but either way, it comes back to your comment on current state of low commissions; it doesn't mean much unless you make a ton of transactions
14:05:31 <CDB-Man> yeah, using the API is a possibility, but that reduces the convenience of the "all in one" tool
14:09:41 <CDB-Man> hmm, perhaps I can use offsetting splits to manally transfe the info
14:10:02 <CDB-Man> reversing entries, but then that would get very messy very quick
14:10:41 <CDB-Man> currently, my entire investment portfolio is recorded at cost, with commissions capitalized, so I have no real-time mark-to-market valuations going on
14:12:54 <jralls> CDB-Man: From Pub 550: "You cannot deduct a fee you pay to a broker to acquire investment property such as stocks or bonds. You must add the fee to the cost of the property."
14:13:29 <CDB-Man> all the more reason why I was suspicious it was setup to do that
14:13:49 <CDB-Man> the only fees you can deduct are things like annual maintenance fees
14:17:25 <jralls> So he (Mike Alexander, the maintainer of the Adv. Portfolio Report) might have it in mind that US users will just fold the commission into the purchase and having it as a separate expense is for folks whose tax authorities do it differently.
14:18:21 <CDB-Man> most of the OECD generally has it capitalized, though
14:18:51 <CDB-Man> much of*
14:19:00 <jralls> Most isn't all, and we have many users from non-OECD countries.
14:19:05 <CDB-Man> fair
14:20:02 <CDB-Man> well, it may just end up that I'll have to record a per-unit price that does not reflect the market cost at purchase, but instead has commissions capitalized into the unit cost
14:20:58 <CDB-Man> for the record, Im up in Canada here, and we capitalize purchase commissions as well; I file both Cdn and US taxes as work
14:27:52 <jralls> Anyway, you want to keep track of how much commissions and fees you pay along with the actual price-per-share of purchases and sales while rolling up the total into the book value of the asset. You can do that the same way you book gains, by creating a money-only split, but it won't show up on the Adv. Portfolio Report. Mike A doesn't read IRC, so bring it up on the user mailing list and see what he says.
14:29:54 <CDB-Man> yeah, a money-only split (no units) results it an income (loss) reflected on the Adv Portfolio, so that's not particularly ideal either
14:30:02 <CDB-Man> and hmm, user mailing list?
14:31:22 <CDB-Man> loss reflected on the purchase transaction, that is
14:33:48 <jralls> Probably because that's what money-only splits are usually used for.
14:34:29 <CDB-Man> indeed, that appears the case
14:34:35 <jralls> gnucash-user@gnucash.org. Subscribe first at https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user.
14:36:07 <CDB-Man> hmm, old school email forwarding threads; reminds me of BBS
14:39:08 <jralls> Yup. Widely used in open-source projects. If you really want a web interface there's Nabble.
14:39:24 <CDB-Man> hmm, does this mailing list accept attachments? I'm thinking of attaching a .txt of today's transcript
14:40:25 <CDB-Man> the old days of BBS and Usenet, today replaced by this, heh it's an improvement for sure
14:43:03 <jralls> Small attachments are OK, but you can also post a link to the log: http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2015/11/2015-11-21.html
14:44:21 <jralls> Time for my bike ride. Back in a while.
14:44:28 *** jralls is now known as jralls_afk
14:46:25 <CDB-Man> jralls_afk: now that's convenient, i see what you mean by public logging in the irc topic now
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16:24:01 <candyflip> CDB-Man: i don'
16:24:11 <candyflip> t recommend subscribing to that mailing lislt
16:30:15 *** jralls_afk is now known as jralls
16:31:37 <jralls> candyflip: You'd benefit from subscribing too: There are some very experienced users of the business features who might have some more ideas on how to manage your reimbursables.
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21:20:26 <CDB-Man> well, i just want my 1 question answered
22:36:21 <warlord> CDB-Man: which question? (give me a timestamp and I'll read the log)
22:38:56 <CDB-Man> well, it comes back to going to ask the maintainer of the adv portfolio if he's considered various capitalization rules for commissions on the purchase of shares
22:39:04 <CDB-Man> http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2015/11/2015-11-21.html#T13:47:26 starts there
22:40:10 <warlord> CDB-Man: Ah, I see. Alas, I don't know the report well enough. I suggest asking on -devel.
22:40:36 <CDB-Man> as in the devel mailing list?
22:41:04 <warlord> yes
22:41:09 <warlord> (sorry, gotta leave again)
22:41:16 <CDB-Man> <jralls> Anyway, you want to keep track of how much commissions and fees you pay along with the actual price-per-share of purchases and sales while rolling up the total into the book value of the asset. You can do that the same way you book gains, by creating a money-only split, but it won't show up on the Adv. Portfolio Report. Mike A doesn't read IRC, so bring it up on the user mailing list and see what he says.
22:41:34 <CDB-Man> jralls says that the maintainer of that report, Mike A, is on the users list
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