Getting money for Gnucash development [was Re: Newbie migration issues]

[Rod Engelsman]

Robert Uhl wrote:

>Rod Engelsman <rodengelsman at ruraltel.net> writes:
>  
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>>The point is that they are not one and the same thing -- accounting
>>and personal finance.
>>    
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>I disagree, actually.  It wasn't until I started using double entry
>accounting and gnucash that I started to manage my finances, and am now
>extremely well off relative to where I started.  The Italians had the
>same experience when they first invented it.
>  
>
What exactly can you do with gnucash that you can't do with Quicken? 
I've been using MS Money for going on 15 years now, and I can tell you 
for a fact that these programs *do* use double-entry accounting. They 
just don't throw it in your face and expect you to learn a lot of new 
terms to describe the same thing.

I'm happy for you for your financial success, but I would attribute that 
more to discipline and (in the case of investments) a bit of good luck. 
I'm sure that lots of people have achieved the same results using 
friendlier tools.

>  
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>>Example: In Quicken or MSMoney, an account register for a checking
>>account *looks* like the check register that everyone is familiar
>>with. I.e., the columns are arranged as check#, date, description,
>>payment (or withdrawal), cleared, deposit, and balance. Gnucash is (I
>>assume) set up to look like a "proper" accounting ledger.
>>    
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>It's not, actually: the default is to use the familiar labels for
>everything.  I turned on the accounting labels, but that's an option for
>geeks like me.
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I'm not talking about the labels. I'm talking about the order of the 
columns. When I look at a register in gnucash my deposits look like 
withdrawals and vice-versa.


>>I want to keep my checkbook in line, set up a budget, and keep track
>>of stuff for my taxes.  Eventually, I want to track some investments.
>>Gnucash is cumbersome for the first task, useless for the second, and
>>I can't figure out how to make it work right for the third.
>>    
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>I beg to differ.  I'm very happy using gnucash to track my cheques, keep
>to my budget and track investments--it's done _really_ well for me.  I
>don't really use it for tax purposes, so I can't speak to that.
>
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So where's the budgeting tools? There are a lot of reporting tools to 
tell you what you have done, but none that I can see for planning 
purposes. Something that helps you look at your income and decide what 
you can spend for various things. And this same something to help you 
compare what you planned with what you are actually doing.

Taxes are an important part of you financial picture, particularly with 
regard to investments. So if you don't use the tax tools in gnucash, 
then how has this application helped you in that regard?


>>It's unfortunate that developers are in such short supply, because
>>this project is badly in need of a fork.  One fork to continue gnucash
>>on it's present course -- i.e. becoming a first-class tool for
>>business accounting -- and a second fork to adapt it for personal
>>finance.
>>    
>>
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>Again, I must disagree.  The core functionality is the same, and
>end-users see a very real benefit from learning to track their money
>properly.  Even little stuff like realising that paying $100 extra on a
>mortgage doesn't cost one a dime (it's a transfer, not an expense) is
>quite liberating.
>  
>
But I don't understand. Why can't you use Quicken or Money for that? A 
payment on a loan account is listed explicitly as a transfer in those 
programs, too. And the docs go into reasonable detail about how such 
things affect your net worth. If you don't understand those concepts as 
presented in Quicken you aren't going to understand it any better for 
having read a tutorial on debits and credits -- which basically have no 
intrinsic meaning anyway, and are just counter-intuitive and confusing.


>I would like to see some of the business stuff pared away into a
>business plug-in or somesuch, though.  There's no real need for me to
>see stuff for customer tracking &c. when all I care about is my personal
>funds.
>
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Bingo! I don't need all that stuff either. And a lot of the stuff I *do* 
need either isn't supported at all or is a lot more difficult to use. I 
don't say that as a slam on gnucash or the efforts of the developers. 
It's just obvious to me that gnucash has been designed from the outset 
for business accounting, and as  a consequence it's only so-so for the 
average user that needs a personal finance package. In exactly the same 
way that Quicken isn't very good for business accounting.

A good analogy might be the difference between a bitmap graphics program 
like the GIMP and a scalar graphics program like Inkscape. Some things 
you can do better in GIMP, other things better in Inkscape, and still 
others where it doesn't matter much. But you can't say that one is a 
better graphics program than the other. They are designed for different 
purposes. And my contention is that Gnucash doesn't seem to be very well 
designed for personal finances. It *can* be used for such, but that's 
not where the development effort has been focused. That's neither good 
nor bad. It just is.

Rod