Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the Expense account on GnuCash?

Robby Burns robbyburns2010 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 18 22:53:56 EDT 2012 

My thanks to those who have tried to help me. It is amazing to me how
complicated this seems to be...considering that I was a math major in
college.

I guess all that means is that I can to multiplication and division in my
head...but I don't know how to set up accounting books.

To answer your questions about what I was trying to do, I was simply trying
to total up all my business expenses--plus itemized deductions on the
personal side (i.e.- medical)--and then geta total for each sub-category of
those expenses.

I was able to send each expense from the checking account into a
sub-category...but I ran into trouble when i tried to allocate certain
charges on my charge card to those sub-categories.

I do not have a separate credit card for business purposes. I have a very
small entertainment business, and never found it necessary to have one.

So, when I tried to itemize my credit card charges for 2011, I tried to
create an "account" titled "Credit Card Business Charges"...and then dump
each line item into the already established sub-categories from my business
checking account.

That is where I ran into the "Rebate" header. Mike, you told me,* "Don't
say anything about "rebate" or anything else you see strange about double
entry bookkeeping."*

How can I *avoid* saying anything about "rebate" if *that* is the issue I
find to be confusing?

I wound up using Quicken 2000 (12 years old) and it was very easy to create
a "Business Credit Card Charges" account...and to subdivide all the charges
into different categories.

Maybe I will try using GnuCash for my 2012 business year...if I can figure
it out.

Thank you all for your help. I wish I was smarter, so that all your efforts
*"ain't been in vain for nothin'" *(Name That Movie...and who said it?)

Robby

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Mike or Penny Novack <
stepbystepfarm at mtdata.com> wrote:

> Robby,
>    You CAN use gnucash for this sort of thing (partial accounting) and
> there might be very good reasons to do so, for the reports, etc. But you
> will have a little trouble getting people here being able to help you set
> this up. Most people using gnucash are doing so for total accounting and
> will have trouble seeing the possible uses of "partial books". Subsidiary
> books aren't actually unusual in the real world, but normally the
> subsidiary books are rooted in/related to a set of master books. Much as a
> business, in addition to the main books might have a separate "petty cash"
> book. While I use gnucash to maintain complete books for organizations of
> which I am treasurer I don't keep a set of personal books but do use
> gnucash for some partial books (we itemize donations so I use gnucash to
> for a "donations" books from which I can generate all sorts of useful
> reports on our giving as well as for tax purposes).
>
>    Expense reporting -- OK, you didn't say if this was for yourself (just
> tax reporting) or for submission to an employer for reimbursement. Will
> work for both, but let me point out to those who think little notes on
> paper OK, as treasurer I have to deal with reimbursement requests say for
> somebody we sent to a conference and in that role I'd much prefer a proper
> report I could link to all those receipts enclosed.
>
> a) The fundamental equation must be maintained. Assets = Liabilities +
> Equity, which if we expand with the temporary equity accounts Income and
> Expense would be Assets = Liabilities + Equity + (Income - Expenses). Here
> that will be (and will remain) 0 = 0 + 0 in this partial book (no assets,
> liabilities, or equities). You may be interested in knowing whether some
> expense was paid for by credit card, cash, personal check, debit card, etc.
> so all these will be child accounts of "Source of Payment" whose type will
> be INCOME.
>
> b) You will want two top level expense accounts, personal and business.
>
> c) This is going to be easier if I use an example? On this business trip
> you stop to eat and pay for lunch with your personal credit card. That
> would be the source of payment for the transaction which might be a split
> for food (business) and drink (personal) -- our organization pays for the
> food of people we send to a conference but they pay for their beers.
>
> d) The point here is that is will be easy to produce reports with details
> if the account trees are set up with that level of detail. Yes, from your
> point of view as the person submitting the claim for reimbursement just
> need to know the total that was legitimate business expense but from the
> point of view of the business might want to be able to categorize expenses.
> Keep in mind the poor accountant on the receiving end who will need to be
> able to tie receipts to these items.
>
> e) Once set up appropriately the same "partial book" can report for
> multiple business trips (just use the proper date interval).
>
> f) The "rebate" matter --- ignore. You are being confused by not
> understanding double entry bookkeeping. Originally the left column of ANY
> account was "debit" and the right column "credit" (Latin, he owes (me) and
> he trusts (me) meaning I owe him). Those of us who learned in the old pen
> and ink on paper days understand all this better. Here the type of account
> was "expense", an account on the left or debit side of the ledger
> (increases to the net of the account are debits). The USUAL reversal or
> negative of an expense would be  "rebate". In other words, gnucash is using
> "expense" and "rebate" for "debit" and "credit" if the account type is
> EXPENSE.
>
>    In a way this is related to what I said earlier about the "Payment
> Source" account being of type Income. Not really Income per se but the dead
> opposite side of the ledger from Expense (and we usually think of a
> negative expense as an income).
>
> Michael D Novack, FLMI
>
> PS -- Robby, if you think you will need help with setting this up start a
> new thread
> 1) Be explicit about what you want to do. Is this for submitting for
> reimbursement? Is this for personal business reporting (in which case might
> be trying to incorporate some tie to the paper receipts).
> 2) Don't say anything about "rebate" or anything else you see strange
> about double entry bookkeeping
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Robby--
>>
>> Please use Reply All, and keep this on the list. If you do that, others
>> (with FAR more experience and understanding of both Gnucash and accounting)
>> can chime in with their own observations.
>>
>> In regards to your point: I believe that it will ultimately be easier and
>> clearer for you to use Gnucash to track all your expenses and accounts,
>> rather than some indeterminate subset of them. I do not believe that
>> Gnucash is well suited to such a partial accounting.
>>
>> If all you need is a running total, you might best be served with a
>> spreadsheet. Personally, I prefer having all my various accounts under
>> Gnucash, and I like the fact that I can determine how much money I spend on
>> (say) gas or dining out, or how much interest I paid last year.
>>
>> And yes, if you want to track cash expenditures, you'll have to have a
>> Cash account. Gnucash sets one up by default when you start up. That, by
>> the way, is one area that I have not found a compelling need to track. When
>> I take out cash, it goes into that account (to account for the ATM
>> withdrawal), but I never end up putting in the expenditures that use up the
>> cash in my pocket. Gnucash thinks I am sitting on a huge pile of cash.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**__
>> From: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com>
>> To: David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:28
>> PM
>> Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the
>> Expense account on GnuCash?
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, David.
>>
>> Maybe I need to make my request more clear.
>>
>> I just wanted to add up all the expenses--in different categories--that I
>> incurred.
>>
>> Yes, the payments may have been made from different accounts (banks,
>> credit cards) but I do not want to have to do accounting for all of those
>> accounts.  If I use my credit card for some personal stuff and some
>> business stuff,
>> I just want to be able to keep a running total of my business
>> expenses...regardless of where the funds came from. (BTW...what if I pay
>> cash for something? Do I have to keep a "cash account" in GnuCash, too?)
>>
>> Is this something I cannot do in GnuCash?
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:15 PM, David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Robby--
>>
>>
>>> Please keep this on the list.
>>>
>>>
>>> The whole point of Gnucash being "double-entry" is that you HAVE to have
>>> your money come from one place and go somewhere else.
>>>
>>> Take this example: you purchase a ream of paper for five dollars cash.
>>> The transaction would have:
>>>
>>>
>>> Expenses:Supplies  -$5
>>> Assets:Cash in Wallet:   -$5
>>>
>>>
>>> In other words, you take money from your wallet and exchange it for a
>>> ream of paper. [Presumably, you got the cash into your wallet by
>>> withdrawing from your checking account, and the money in the checking
>>> account got there from your paycheck, which is listed as income]
>>>
>>>
>>> To get an accounting of a particular expenses, you can create reports
>>> based on the specific account, covering a particular time frame.
>>>
>>>
>>> You really should read more background on basic accounting, as well as
>>> the Gnucash Tutorial.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**__
>>> From: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com>
>>> To: David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:23
>>> AM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the
>>> Expense account on GnuCash?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi, David,
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay...I understand what it is doing...now how can I stop it from doing
>>> that in this case?
>>>
>>>
>>> I just want to add up all the expenses in different categories. I don't
>>> need to "balance" out the payments with a "rebate" from somewhere else.  Is
>>> it possible to change the "headers" on the columns?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 9:33 PM, David T. <sunfish62 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Robby:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Try looking at http://gnucash.org/docs/v2.4/**C/gnucash-guide/basics-**
>>>> accounting1.html<http://gnucash.org/docs/v2.4/C/gnucash-guide/basics-accounting1.html>
>>>>
>>>> You're seeing Gnucash enforcing the concept of Double-Entry
>>>> bookkeeping. Money flows from one account to another.
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**__
>>>> From: Yawar Amin <yawar.amin at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Robby Burns <robbyburns2010 at gmail.com> Cc: "
>>>> gnucash-user at gnucash.org" <gnucash-user at gnucash.org> Sent: Monday,
>>>> October 15, 2012 5:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Help with GnuCash! Why is there a “Rebate” column in the
>>>> Expense account on GnuCash?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I am forwarding your email to the GnuCash users mailing list, which is a
>>>> public discussion forum where everyone can benefit from sharing
>>>> questions and answers. To participate in the mailing list, click the
>>>> ‘Reply All’ button in your email program whenever you get an email from
>>>> someone in the list.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Yawar
>>>>
>>>> On 2012-10-15 09:47, Robby Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to set up an account where I can track my small business
>>>>> expenses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Whenever I enter a line item, and put the amount I spent under the
>>>>> “Expense” column, the program creates a duplicate line item right
>>>>> underneath my entry, but it enters the same amount under a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> column
>>
>>
>>> named “Rebate.”
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not want a Rebate. I just want to keep a running total of all the
>>>>> Expenses, with the ability to subdivide the expenses into sub-accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hw do I get rid of the “Rebate” column?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot find the answer in the manual.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> -----
>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
> --
> There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the
> equality of the grave.
>
>

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